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Automatic Hammer Valve IDEA

This area is for the discussion of BB or airsoft sub machine guns, and or other small arms such as pellets.
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Automatic Hammer Valve IDEA

Unread postAuthor: VH_man » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:15 pm

well.... ive been thinking lately.....

on the purchase of my new Smart Parts ION, i have studied the circuitry and found out how the gun "fires" the solenoid valve that actuates the complex bolt system.

and then it clicked...... why not take Ant's BB gun concept combined with JSR's idea to have a motor pull it back and forth, and replace this WITH A SOLENOID so that you dont have to deal with complicated gears and such.

does anyone think it would work? im looking for feedback here because if you think i can find a solenoid that strikes hard enough to fire a .177 BB at a considerable velocity, tell me where to get one and youll soon see a .177 machine gun... because i already have 95% of it built......
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Unread postAuthor: Acdcmonkey1991 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:09 pm

I still don't understand the concept of the motor, but as for the solenoid, try mcmaster...
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:20 pm

your going to have a tough time finding a solenoid that powerfull. It will be huge too.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:26 pm

Yeesh, you're going to have to dump some freaky current to whack a BB with a fast enough solenoid hammer.

A captive bolt gauss gun.

Using a motor to wind back a hammer against a spring would be more efficient but really that's basically how an AEG works. As do electric nail guns too for that matter.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:26 pm

Hotwired wrote:Yeesh, you're going to have to dump some freaky current to whack a BB with a fast and massive enough solenoid hammer.

A captive bolt gauss gun.

Using a motor to wind back a hammer against a spring would be more efficient but really that's basically how an AEG works. As do electric nail guns too for that matter.
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Unread postAuthor: VH_man » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:49 pm

meh i guess i didnt explain it right.......

Take Ant's style of BB gun. the barrel gets cocked in the foward position. when the sear is released, the barrel slams backwards, hitting open a hammer valve that fires the BB with pneumatic force.

im wondering if there are any solenoids powerful enough to "slam" the barrel backwards with enough force to open the valve and fire the BB, and get preformance at the same time.
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:53 pm

No, for the exact same reasons as above. Solenoids use magnetic fields to accelerate the pin. There is no way in hell you will get that EXTREMELY LIGHT pin moving fast enough to knock back that thing. Even a bigger one would take a capacitor to move enough.

No, use a motor, or an electric nailgun if you need to.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:20 am

I did dabble briefly with the notion of a solenoid powered bolt, have a look at this and this.

Never followed it through because to get a good seal, the friction was far too much for the solenoids I have, and I couldn't be arsed with making a geared mechanism with a motor.

The theory's sound as far as I'm concerned, you just need a powerful enough solenoid.
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:14 am

you could always avoid all of the gears by hooking the sliding part up to a wheel (attached to a motor of course) via a off center joint, like the wheels of a steam engine, only backwards in the forces.

If you dont understand I will draw you up a diagram.
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Unread postAuthor: VH_man » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:58 am

yea i understand the motor thing, but its not going to give that "SLAP" that hammer valves rely on for their efficency and power.

im gonna search on Mcmaster today to see what i can find in the way of high-strength solenoids. Also, travel has a HUGE effect on hammer valve preformance. try the stuff in GGDT, every inch you make the hammer move more, the projectile goes faster and faster untill you hit the point where its useless.

but like i said, ill look. And ill post a picture of my design when i have time because its clear some people have it mixed up, wich makes sense....... i didnt have the clearest post (aka nothing against you)
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Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:05 am

VH_man wrote:yea i understand the motor thing, but its not going to give that "SLAP" that hammer valves rely on for their efficency and power.


You can still use a motor. Use a geared rail and a gear with a couple ground down teeth to draw back a spring loaded hammer and let it rip at peak tension. The trick is calibration.
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Unread postAuthor: Matheusilla » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:43 am

Doesn't the Drozd bb machine gun (manufactured by Baikal (sp?)) use a solenoid?
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Unread postAuthor: THUNDERLORD » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:07 am

Do you plan on fitting the parts inside something you have or designing around the mechanism?

Study maybe the way electric bells work. Just an electromagnet (or two) pulling a flat spring towards it.
The current pulses by a simple contact switch.
The tip of the spring has a weight attached for a hammer to strike the bell(s). (Fire bells, school bells).
DC and AC ones are different to get the hammer to pulse. (Schematic in a book but no camera right now).
Tattoo needles work very similar and probably the fastest cycling motors.

Seems like a similar design to the electric bell could be designed compact enough for .177 or 6mm hammer mechanism. :wink: 8)
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:47 am

Matheusilla wrote:Doesn't the Drozd bb machine gun (manufactured by Baikal (sp?)) use a solenoid?


Yes, as does the Harper wold pistol and various Daystate rifles - along with the Drozd, they basically substitute a spring loaded hammer for a solenoid mechanism.
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Unread postAuthor: Antonio » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:59 pm

Matheusilla wrote:Doesn't the Drozd bb machine gun (manufactured by Baikal (sp?)) use a solenoid?


Yeah I was just ganna say that lol. So it is doable, the thing is that it doesnt have a real"" poppet valve. It rather looks like a piston with a spring. Check my post on the drozd, if you check youtube you will find this: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vHlgY8r6kM&feature=related[/youtube]. The thing is, I dont know the specs on the solenoid. I tried to calculate how many coils, volts and amps I needed to recock my guns but I gave way high number (on eg coils). As I dont know where to buy coils it wasnt really an option for me. It would be interesting if someone could do the maths behind it. I am not sure how much force needed to be exerted though:S And btw the ion cant be compared to a electrical reloading system as a solenoid is a valve and doesnt add energy. The air afterall resets"" it.
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