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Another newb, vortex question

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Another newb, vortex question

Unread postAuthor: littlebro05 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:59 am

Hey guys again,

I'm on 3 weeks holidays now, and want to make a vortex rifle. BUT!!, I don't have the materials to make a vortex block, so i'm going to make an "inline" vortex cap rifle. But i realised that drilling a hole straight on a curve angle would be hard.... sooo on the diagram below, does placing the air input effect it's performance?

Image

There it is... anyone that can help me on this...

The parts I'm missing is the blowgun, tire valve (i lost it somewhere in my room :S), 6.2mm aluminium tube, the cap, the pvc pipe for inline...
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Unread postAuthor: Hydra » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:16 am

Umm.. that would work with a cloud but im not sure with a vortex. If it worked it wouldnt be as good as drilling it onto the side. If you drill it on the side the BBs will actually move in circles. But putting striaght on the bottom will shake em around everywhere.
If you really need to do that, make a cloud.
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Unread postAuthor: littlebro05 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:26 am

Hydra wrote:Umm.. that would work with a cloud but im not sure with a vortex. If it worked it wouldnt be as good as drilling it onto the side. If you drill it on the side the BBs will actually move in circles. But putting striaght on the bottom will shake em around everywhere.
If you really need to do that, make a cloud.


I kinda wanna make a vortex so I can't get more range... reading spudwiki, vortex is also more air efficient... still eats alot of air but less than a cloud. Well thanks for the response
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:55 am

I doubt it will make much of a difference, all BBMGs are greedy air and BB eaters.
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Unread postAuthor: littlebro05 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:09 am

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:I doubt it will make much of a difference, all BBMGs are greedy air and BB eaters.


although a vortex is more strong right? I hear that clouds just follows air out, and vortex's force the bb out the barrel or something like that?
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:13 am

If you're using the same barrel length, pressure and chamber size, velocity will be the same. The cloud will probably have a higher rate of fire though.
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Unread postAuthor: potatoflinger » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:14 am

For the gun to create a vortex, it needs to have the air input along the side, the way it is on the left side of your diagram. If the air input is in the center of the vortex block, the way it is on the right side of your diagram, the air will not be able to create a vortex, so it will leave you with a cloud bbmg.

If you want a vortex gun, go with the left side of your diagram.
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Unread postAuthor: Davidvaini » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:50 am

vortex guns are more of a forced air system rather than a suction system like clouds, therefore the more you have it inline with the cap the easier it is for the air to be redirected and therefore you get a greater ROF and velocity.
Also a side note, vortex's don't have as much of a problem with longer barrels and velocity because as I said above its more of a forced air than a suction system. It is still effected slightly but not nearly as much as a cloud.

Also, I see that you are planing on making a vortex cap. A vortex cap's velocity is directly related to the positioning of the air inlet. The golden spot for a vortex cap is actually not 90 degrees away from the air but about 75 degrees.

Image

The problem with an Inline Vortex Cap or "B Mag Style" is the feeding issues with a 90 degree air inlet. I have found the sweet spot for airsoft bb's and metal bb's alike is around the angle shown in the picture.

For a Inline vortex block this changes because the bb's are not being forced in through the side directly into the block.
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Last edited by Davidvaini on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:54 am

Have you actually measured the velocity differences between these configurations?
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Unread postAuthor: Davidvaini » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:56 am

yes, though it was a poor man's chrono (audacity.) I have done a lot of these tests at my home when first creating the vortex cap design. Also the velocity was noticeably different about 25fps.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:29 pm

Davidvaini:
Did you try any other positions for the air inlet? I've always wondered if the air inlet shouldn't be parallel to the barrel; barrel at the top of the vortex cylinder and air inlet at the bottom. With that setup there is always (well almost always) a BB in the flow path near the air inlet.
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Unread postAuthor: Pilgrimman » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:33 pm

It would jam easily if there were too many bbs in the reservoir. If you check out the bbmg on BurntLatke, it has a metal skirt around the vortex block to prevent too many bbs entering the block and cutting off the air supply.
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Unread postAuthor: Davidvaini » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:11 pm

Pilgrimman wrote:It would jam easily if there were too many bbs in the reservoir. If you check out the bbmg on BurntLatke, it has a metal skirt around the vortex block to prevent too many bbs entering the block and cutting off the air supply.


I believe he is talking about a vortex cap in which case you would not want to have a skirt. BurntLatke is good for beginners but he is also making a inline and not a "Tee" vortex.

It would jam though with a vortex cap if you were to have the air inlet that far away. I would recommend never to go past 95 degrees or else you are prone to jams.

The placement of the air inlet is very important with any vortex system however 3 things need to be taken into consideration when deciding where to put the inlet.

-Velocity
-ROF
-Jamming

They are kind of in that order too... The more inline you have it the more power, the greater the angle the greater the rof however if you go too far then you get jamming.

Like I said... the sweet spot is around 70-80 degrees.
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Vortex Cap / Block

Unread postAuthor: littlebro05 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:19 pm

DavidVaini wrote:The problem with an Inline Vortex Cap or "B Mag Style" is the feeding issues with a 90 degree air inlet. I have found the sweet spot for airsoft bb's and metal bb's alike is around the angle shown in the picture.

For a Inline vortex block this changes because the bb's are not being forced in through the side directly into the block.


What do you mean, i was going to put a vortex cap in this something like this in spudwiki... and u said somethign about... forced into the block, not around it...

Image

because i wanted some not so bulky look, but i don't have the materials to make a vortex block, and a vortex cap looks soo much more easier... and thanks for the vortex replies it gives me a larger insight into bbmgs[/quote]
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Unread postAuthor: Davidvaini » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:26 pm

That animation made by me is for a Inline Vortex not a vortex cap.

A vortex cap is a pvc cap with 2 holes drilled into it. One for a barrel and one for an Air Inlet. A Inline vortex has bb's push from behind into the sides of the vortex block.

So are you trying to make a vortex block out of a piece of 3/4" pvc pipe rather than getting a block of wood and drilling a 3/4" hole?

Are you making a Inline Vortex or a Vortex Cap?
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