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squeezing the most accuracy out of a paintball

This area is for the discussion of BB or airsoft sub machine guns, and or other small arms such as pellets.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:59 pm

al-xg wrote:Use the heaviest winter paintballs you can find.
They tend to use a much more viscous paint wich doesn't move about as much in the ball.

All the winter balls I've seen have been crap, even the stuff from RPS...
although it wouldn't surprise me if it was just a bad batch.

I'd actualy suggest a higher pressure with lower volume, instead of previous suggestions, (if your making the marker) so you get the highest possible acceleration with the least pressure at the muzzle.

According to AKALMP, the reverse is true.
And at the barrel lengths we're talking about, we are pushing the paintball up to 280fps, not catapulting it like you would see in a normal paintgun.
HPLV would produce either hot velocities or a vacuum, neither being desirable

But if your using your paintball marker, that might be tricky to adjust on a mechanical tippmann, on an eletropneumatic marker you could just play around with the pressure and dwell times.

:roll:
You can adjust dwell and pressure on Tippmann, hence my suggesting a spring kit and a Stabilizer...

And I thought you said HPLV would be better, EP's are all LPHV.

The hammerhaed barrels are riffled iirc(with a twist rate, not straight grooves though) and are among the most accurate, but that is still just about 40-50m effective range.


Hammerhead barrels are tolerable, but not as good as PPS's elliptically honed smoothbore brass.



EDIT:

cooptroop123 wrote:rifling wont help, the best accuracy comes from a good paint bore match and good, spherical paint

Paint-to-bore match is almost all Smart Parts marketing hype...
The only truth to it comes from the fact that you won't have roll-outs, which is not a problem on today's open-bolt guns, and can be solved with Widgets for closed bolt guns...

paint swages itself to fit the barrel, so long as the barrel isn't to over/under-sized (i.e. .691 paint in a .678barrel or vice-versa).
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:33 am

And at the barrel lengths we're talking about, we are pushing the paintball up to 280fps, not catapulting it like you would see in a normal paintgun.
HPLV would produce either hot velocities or a vacuum, neither being desirable


I can't actually see what would be wrong with "catapulting" the paintball, as long as the acceleration doesn't destroy or deteriorate the ball, it still leaves the barrel with the same velocity.
The result is just a lower muzzle pressure without a reduction in power.
The vaccum will only happen if the the pressure or volume is too small, or i guess if the flow is too restricted. Otherwise the projectiles acceleration drops as pressure drops but not its speed.
And as far as hot velocities, well unless the adjustments are wrong the velocity shouldn't be.

I mentioned this at first in the event of a homemade marker in wich case one would just have to choose the chamber volume and pressure.
A lot of people complain about high pressure spudguns being incredibly loud, but I actually found that mine made less noise that my low pressure ones using the same caliber and barrel length. And that would be down to the fact that the HP one has a 80cc chamber whereas the LP one used 400cc (and the HP 80cc is still considerably more powerful)

The dwell and pressure settings on a EP are just pressing some buttons and turning the reg up, wich is still considerably easier in my opinion than having to replace springs and buying a reg. But I did forget along the way that mech markers are usually unregulated.
Nevertheless one can still choose LPHV or HPLV on a EP just on a smaller scale.

Well that is quite a lump of writing, for maybe not that much, because there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in accuracy between HP and LP paintball markers, but for lower muzzle pressure turbulence and noise, HPLV seems to be the way to go.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:47 pm

al-xg wrote:I can't actually see what would be wrong with "catapulting" the paintball, as long as the acceleration doesn't destroy or deteriorate the ball, it still leaves the barrel with the same velocity.

unfortunately, catapulting a paintball does, in fact, deteriorate the ball.
ANY force on a paintball will deteriorate it, even gravity, which is why you're supposed to turn cases of paint every other day.

The harder the "air hammer" the more damage it does.
That's why spools and dumps can actually blow apart a paintball.
That's also why stacked tube guns can be made more accurate, the air hammer has to make two 90* turns before slamming into the paintball.
(Sheridan > Nelson)

The result is just a lower muzzle pressure without a reduction in power.
The vaccum will only happen if the the pressure or volume is too small, or i guess if the flow is too restricted. Otherwise the projectiles acceleration drops as pressure drops but not its speed.
And as far as hot velocities, well unless the adjustments are wrong the velocity shouldn't be.

We are talking about barrel lengths greater than 24 inches, dwell must go way up and OP way down or efficiency is nonexistent.

I mentioned this at first in the event of a homemade marker in wich case one would just have to choose the chamber volume and pressure.
A lot of people complain about high pressure spudguns being incredibly loud, but I actually found that mine made less noise that my low pressure ones using the same caliber and barrel length. And that would be down to the fact that the HP one has a 80cc chamber whereas the LP one used 400cc (and the HP 80cc is still considerably more powerful)

What kind of valves were used? :?


The dwell and pressure settings on a EP are just pressing some buttons and turning the reg up, wich is still considerably easier in my opinion than having to replace springs and buying a reg. But I did forget along the way that mech markers are usually unregulated.
Nevertheless one can still choose LPHV or HPLV on a EP just on a smaller scale.


re-springing in most cases is simple.
in others it just requires a tool and you to actually care. :roll:

Well that is quite a lump of writing, for maybe not that much, because there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in accuracy between HP and LP paintball markers, but for lower muzzle pressure turbulence and noise, HPLV seems to be the way to go.

Operating Pressure has little to do with muzzle pressure, noise, or turbulence, that's all in timing and barrel.
And if it's a blow-back it's going to be loud.


Normal paintgun valves will not work with this project, the whole idea is to accelerate the paintball slowly over a long period of time, we are pushing, not slamming.

A paintball is vary delicate, and inconsistent, to get the most accuracy possible the gun must be gentle and highly consistent, the firing sequence must make up for the inconsistency of the projectile by bring as close to perfect as possible.
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Unread postAuthor: raptorforce » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:19 am

judgment_arms wrote:
ilovetoblowthingsup wrote:hmmm....

so I guess I'm scratching the sabot idea, i'd still like to do a cartridge design however.

So i guess... i'll do a LPHV gun. a fairly long barrel, no rifling, and some porting, and MAYBE a suppressor, due to... legality issues so i might not.

non-removable suppressors are fine...

then there's always raincovers... :wink:

wait so if your suppresor is removable its illegal?
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:53 am

Both of the canons I mentioned used the same 3/4" piston QEV, one running at 12bar the other at 60bar.
Operating Pressure has little to do with muzzle pressure, noise, or turbulence

In the case i'm describing it does, one can check that with acceleration speed and pressure curbs in the barrel.

But as you said, if the paintball is damaged by the high acceleration and is therefore highly inaccurate to star off with, there is no point in trying to reduce muzzle turbulence etc...

and you to actually care. :roll:
Yeah I must admit, I use an ION and still can't really be bothered to touch the settings ;)
I might tweak it one day for air efficiency, but don't really care about cycle speeds, I never shoot at 17bps and can't most of the time as I tend to use a gravity hopper.
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Unread postAuthor: frankrede » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:56 am

raptorforce wrote:
judgment_arms wrote:
ilovetoblowthingsup wrote:hmmm....

so I guess I'm scratching the sabot idea, i'd still like to do a cartridge design however.

So i guess... i'll do a LPHV gun. a fairly long barrel, no rifling, and some porting, and MAYBE a suppressor, due to... legality issues so i might not.

non-removable suppressors are fine...

then there's always raincovers... :wink:

wait so if your suppresor is removable its illegal?

If your suppressor could be modified to be used on a real firearm, it is illegal.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:55 am

al-xg wrote:Both of the canons I mentioned used the same 3/4" piston QEV, one running at 12bar the other at 60bar.
Operating Pressure has little to do with muzzle pressure, noise, or turbulence

In the case i'm describing it does, one can check that with acceleration speed and pressure curbs in the barrel.

:?
And you say the LP one is louder?
I need a Dew... :roll:

But as you said, if the paintball is damaged by the high acceleration and is therefore highly inaccurate to star off with, there is no point in trying to reduce muzzle turbulence etc...

but, if the paintball is pushed, and the valve cuts off at the right time, the paintball won't be damaged and there will be no muzzle turbulence. ;)

and you to actually care. :roll:
Yeah I must admit, I use an ION and still can't really be bothered to touch the settings ;)
I might tweak it one day for air efficiency, but don't really care about cycle speeds, I never shoot at 17bps and can't most of the time as I tend to use a gravity hopper.

ION?


you've probably never heard of most of my guns: :lol:
Sheridan PGP
Mokal Titan
AGD Automag classic
WGP '04 Prostock converted back to Sniper

That's not including the various project guns, nor the two "modern" ones...
My meager collection totals somewhere around 8.5, give or take depending on how some of the projects turn out...


Back to the ION...
Why do you have one? :P
Smart Parts is the plague, avoid it...

Efficiency isn't going to get much better, they suck gas worse than a 'Mag...



As for suppressors, if it comes off the markers barrel it's a... class-3... or is it class-2... device...

Again: I need a Dew...:roll:

The suppressor must be integral or it's illegal with out paperwork...
Then there's Raincovers...
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:11 pm

One can just experiment with GGDT, with the same gun model just by changing the pressure and chamber volume, and get a lower muzzle pressure using HPLV but keeping the same muzzle velocity.

By closing the valve the pressure in the barrel will drop faster but the same could be done with HPLV. So its back down to paintball fragility.

You've probably never heard of most of my guns:

Well i don't own any of them but I have come across most of them just through reading the ZDSPB site :)

Well compared to the other guns one can get for a similar price, the ION isn't that bad, it has an eye and shoots quite fast, accurate enough with stock barrel to hit someone consistantly 40m away. I might consider something else if I got serious about playing and had monney to spend.
But I'm happy with it for the while and its was my excuse to get HPA tanks ;)
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:01 pm

al-xg wrote:One can just experiment with GGDT, with the same gun model just by changing the pressure and chamber volume, and get a lower muzzle pressure using HPLV but keeping the same muzzle velocity.

By closing the valve the pressure in the barrel will drop faster but the same could be done with HPLV. So its back down to paintball fragility.

Look, in a properly tuned gun the valve lets out just enough air to get the projectile out the barrel with out wasting gas, so in a properly tuned gun muzzle turbulence would be minimal in HPLV and LPHV.

LPHV can still shatter a paintball if a fast valve is used, I see that a lot in the new dump valve spools like the G3.

You've probably never heard of most of my guns:

Well i don't own any of them but I have come across most of them just through reading the ZDSPB site :)

Well compared to the other guns one can get for a similar price, the ION isn't that bad, it has an eye and shoots quite fast, accurate enough with stock barrel to hit someone consistantly 40m away. I might consider something else if I got serious about playing and had monney to spend.
But I'm happy with it for the while and its was my excuse to get HPA tanks ;)

I'm a bit skeptical about your 40m accuracy claim, my Sheridan does good to do that and they are consider some of the more accurate paintguns.

HPA = Fail
Liquid Co2 FTW!

(Yes I just used "FTW", I haven't had any Dew yet so my brain isn't fully awake...)

Liquid is more consistent since the valve is measuring an incompressible liquid rather than a compressed and ever fluctuating gas.
And yes, I realize the mild hypocrisy of that statement since vaporous Co2 fluctuates more than HPA, I'd still rather use Co2 if for no other reason than "I can". ;)

I refuse to own an HPA tank (UniTanks don't count :wink: ), any gun that can not be made to run Co2 is, in my opinion, flawed and isn't worth owning.
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:31 pm

:) right...
Liquid is more consistent since the valve is measuring an incompressible liquid rather than a compressed and ever fluctuating gas.

Your guns shoot liquid CO2 ?

I just have HPA cause the refils are generaly free, which isn't the case for CO2 over here. On the down side HPA tanks are heavier and more expensive to buy as they are rated for at least 3Kpsi.

At 40m just enough to hit someone standing still (in the chest zone, the paintballs fly too randomly to try headshots). I've been both the shooter and the target. It is quite easy to dodge the paintballs though, and a moving target would make it much harder but i guess thats down to the shooters skill not the gun.

This is going a little off topic ;) ?
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:24 pm

judgment_arms wrote:Liquid is more consistent since the valve is measuring an incompressible liquid rather than a compressed and ever fluctuating gas.

CO2 as a liquid has a highly variable density depending on pressure and temperature, unlike most liquids one might come across in life.

Although it can be said that 100 cc of water will weigh roughly 100 grams, and the same of mercury around 1350 grams (it's denser than lead), CO2 could have a factor of maybe 4 between the extremes of it's density with low pressure/higher temperature giving low densities, high pressures/low temperatures the reverse.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:28 pm

al-xg wrote::) right...
Liquid is more consistent since the valve is measuring an incompressible liquid rather than a compressed and ever fluctuating gas.

Your guns shoot liquid CO2 ?

Well, in all honesty, I have not yet had a siphon tank at my disposal, but I have a couple that can run liquid, and will run liquid once I get my siphon tank together.

more info on running a gun off liquid: http://montneel.selfip.com/liquid.html

I just have HPA cause the refils are generaly free, which isn't the case for CO2 over here. On the down side HPA tanks are heavier and more expensive to buy as they are rated for at least 3Kpsi.

Free HPA?
where?

At 40m just enough to hit someone standing still (in the chest zone, the paintballs fly too randomly to try headshots). I've been both the shooter and the target. It is quite easy to dodge the paintballs though, and a moving target would make it much harder but i guess thats down to the shooters skill not the gun.

This is going a little off topic ;) ?

...I think my mental conversion of 40 meters to yards was off...
yeah, that's about right for standard long-ball range...



Ragnarok wrote:
judgment_arms wrote:Liquid is more consistent since the valve is measuring an incompressible liquid rather than a compressed and ever fluctuating gas.

CO2 as a liquid has a highly variable density depending on pressure and temperature, unlike most liquids one might come across in life.

Although it can be said that 100 cc of water will weigh roughly 100 grams, and the same of mercury around 1350 grams (it's denser than lead), CO2 could have a factor of maybe 4 between the extremes of it's density with low pressure/higher temperature giving low densities, high pressures/low temperatures the reverse.


So, is 100cc of liquid Co2 is not 100cc of liquid Co2? :?

The pressure of the liquid stays relatively consistent in the bottle, since the evaporation happens in the barrel the bottle temperature stays relatively the same, unlike a vapor tank where Co2 is boiled off in the bottle dropping the bottle's temperature and thereby decreasing bottle pressure.


And for that matter, the pressure in HPA tanks is never constant, it varys with temperature which fluctuates in the tank.
The tank heats up on filling, cools to ambient, cools on fireing as the tank drains, returns to ambient...
Never mind reg creep...
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:28 am

judgment_arms wrote:So, is 100cc of liquid Co2 is not 100cc of liquid Co2? :?

No, 100 cc of liquid CO2 is not a consistent amount. It's the same volume, but the actual mass (or moles) of CO2 will vary very greatly, because CO2's density changes heavily.

If I measure 100 cc of water, I know I have roughly the same number of molecules of water, as water's density is pretty consistent. With CO2, 100 cc could be from about 1 and a half moles upwards to 3 or 4 - perhaps more depending on conditions.

Put in other terms, CO2 as a liquid is compressible. (To be far, all liquids are compressible, but most to such a small degree it can be considered unimportant.)
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:31 am

Free HPA?
where?

On fields or in shops that own a compressor.
0.8L must obviously not cost them that much, and i have been asked for a symbolical euro in shops if i wasn't actually buying anything.
Oh and its 3K refils because I have aluminium tanks, I'm not sure about the 4.5K


The air tanks do cool, but as they are regulated it doesn't matter, even if the pressure went up to 3500 or down to 2500 the output is still 850psi.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:51 pm

al-xg wrote:
Free HPA?
where?

On fields or in shops that own a compressor.
0.8L must obviously not cost them that much, and i have been asked for a symbolical euro in shops if i wasn't actually buying anything.
Oh and its 3K refils because I have aluminium tanks, I'm not sure about the 4.5K

Ah, your from the other side of the pond, that explains it...


The air tanks do cool, but as they are regulated it doesn't matter, even if the pressure went up to 3500 or down to 2500 the output is still 850psi.

You have no idea how much those regs creep... :roll:

But, you can regulate Co2, the the pressure in the tank can be up to 1800 or down to 300 and you'll still get the 250 to run most modern guns, with a higher shot count than HPA per CI. :wink:

I haven't seen a gun yet that couldn't run on Co2 at least for a short time, but I've seen plenty that can't run on HPA (old school Tippmann SMG). :wink
Plus, my Mokal Titan's manual say not to use any other compressed gas but Co2.
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