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squeezing the most accuracy out of a paintball

This area is for the discussion of BB or airsoft sub machine guns, and or other small arms such as pellets.
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squeezing the most accuracy out of a paintball

Unread postAuthor: JDP12 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:21 pm

so this is purely a thing i thought of the other day while stripping down my Tippmann A5...

What if you took a paintball, made a lightweight sabot for it(Light so that if somehow it hit someone it wouldn't cause pain), and then built a custom launcher operating with a small (possibly 1/2 or 1/4") QEV.

would that be effective?? I Thought about a rifled barrel as well, but I don't think it would add a whole lot. It could.

So could a saboted paintball work? I think the sabot would have to be fairly "deep" or in other words the 'ball would sit pretty deep into the sabot to keep the sabot on as long as possible?

This idea may not work at all, I'm not really sure. But it seems like it potentially could?

Opinions?
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Unread postAuthor: FishBoy » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:37 pm

I think if you squeezed a paintball it would pop...

:D

Aside from that, it sounds good to me, as long as the sabot is accurate, and that would be the challenge.
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Unread postAuthor: JDP12 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:42 pm

hmm just found some good info on sabots- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

they have some good pictures of various types..

JSR in 3....2.....1...
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:19 pm

3...2...1... *Ragnarok*

WTF? "Ragnarok" isn't a proper sound effect! :?

Well, anyway, this old thread might be worth a read. It's got some information about paintballs and how you might get some extra accuracy out of them:
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/t-t14160.html
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Unread postAuthor: SP00K » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:39 pm

I just used tissue paper inside a 3/4 inch barrel.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:32 pm

The best way to make a paintball as accurate as possible would be to have a consistant air source (filled to the same pressure on EVERY shot), which probably shouldn't be a problem on a homemade, and have a good paint to barrel match. In your case, a saboted paintball will be a really good matchup, as the sabot will fill any gaps.

In other words, it should not be a problem.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:29 pm

Port the barrel to remove as much wasted pressurised gas as possible before the ball is out of the guidance of the barrel. It prevents uneven blowby as the ball exits upsetting its direction.

Ideally you make sure the volume of gas is minimal in the first place but for more power such wastage may be acceptable.

In fact, reinvent a modern paintball marker.

Saboting it in a more rigid and aerodynamic shell will always work. You could get an accurate marshmallow at any distance you can reach to if you give it enough of a shell.
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Unread postAuthor: JDP12 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:38 pm

hmm... so here's what i was thinking.


a HPLV gun, with a small metal chamber, and a PVC barrel. Barrel may or may not be rifled, undecided yet.

It will be a clip fed, cartridge gun. The sabot will be similar to the cup sabot in the link i posted, made out of polyurethane or something like that. I think the paintball will be in a bit deeper however, in order to try and retain the sabot for a longer distance.

I do think that is the key- to be able to keep the paintball in the sabot for as long as a distance possible.

Any ideas on how to acheive that?
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:44 pm

Why not just tape a paper tail on to the end of the paintballs? It could in no way hurt anyone, unlike these rather dangerous polyurethane sabots that you are talking about (besides, it is about infinitely cheaper, cheaper, and quicker to make.) Then they could stick on the entire way.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:27 am

Image

Not this again...

HPLV is NOT the way to go, you need to accelerate it slowly, over a long distance

Rifling a paintball actually does work, other people have tested it, sorry no links, but in the end you are shooting a projectile made of jell-o, cough-syrup, and crayon wax, don't expect one hole groups at 80 yards... or 50... be happy if you stack them at 30...

the whole "paint-to-bore match" is to apply even pressure on all sides of the ball so it generates as little spin as possible, often compared to a "knuckleball", by the time you've added the sabot you don't need to worry so much about paint-to-bore match.

a sabot with a "Skirt" that expands to prevent air from being wasted as blow-by and, if applicable, allows the projectile to "bite" the rifling, would be ideal, be sure to use low-friction materials.

Rag should be able to get you the ideal ROT for a rifled barrel, and a good rifling bench isn't that hard to make.
remember that the barrel accounts for 50% of the accuracy, don't cheap out on the tool that makes the barrel.


now, for those of you who are wondering what happened to me making rifled barrels:
it can be done, it does work, but it's a waste of time, effort, money, and... well... it's pointless...

for the barrels to work you'd have to have a custom valve: low pressure, low flow, low turbulence, highly consistent, with dwell that is infinitely adjustable, and to make it work best the valve pressure would also have to be adjusted mid firing.

never mind the fact that the barrel would have to be ungodly long, and it would have to be heavy to keep it stable.


having seen the capabilities of properly honed brass barrel (PPS) I feel rifling an unnecessary complication (this from the guy the likes Autocockers due to their complexities, and runs Co2 for the challenge)


this is not to say that I won't be making a paintball rifle just so I can say "I told you so", this is to say, unless you completely understood everything, I just typed don't bother with rifling.

(I want this quoted every time anybody, myself included, brings up the subject of rifled paintball guns)




As for sabots in a smooth bore:
over complication that would see minimal effects and would prevent most any field from allowing it's use.
If I saw a gun at the field I work at that had a projectile other than field paint coming out the barrel I'd not let the owner use it in a game, to many safety concerns, insurance company would have a cow...

And if this is simply for target practice, there be infinity more accurate projectiles for that endeavor than cough-syrup filled jell-o balls...


as far as the "clip" fed cartridge aspect, go spend some time researching the Tippmann SMG 60 and the ATS series of guns...
this is the one part of you design that can be made to work easily, and will be slicker-than-all-get-out when you do get it to work, particularly in full-auto at 10bps/600rpm

and finally PVC barrel???
buy yourself some good brass barrel stock from Tymcneer:
Brass Tubing - M. Carter Brown
when/if you order from Ty, tell him the Judge sent 'ya. 8)


one more thing, do yourself a favor and use a good poppet valve for the main valve. :wink:


okay, time for bed, Ragnarok or JSR will more likely than not pick up on anything I missed/correct anything I got wrong...
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:36 am

In general, sabots are not conducive to accuracy. Besides, there's no real advantage to be gleaned from using a sabot in this case that would offset the reduced accuracy.

Plenty of good points have already been mentioned, the most relevant in my opinion are as follows:

- Consistent triggering and fill pressure

- Long barrel to ensure gentle acceleration

- Barrel as close to the paintball diameter as possible

- Porting at the muzzle or an integral suppressor to reduce the amount of muzzle blast

I wouldn't bother with rifling in this case, given the fact that we're dealing with soft projectiles with a liquid core.
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Unread postAuthor: JDP12 » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:35 pm

hmmm....

so I guess I'm scratching the sabot idea, i'd still like to do a cartridge design however.

So i guess... i'll do a LPHV gun. a fairly long barrel, no rifling, and some porting, and MAYBE a suppressor, due to... legality issues so i might not.

However, it seems like my accuracy will still be fairly limited anyway, so I guess I can just go for a little better accuracy and realism.

Maybe I should just scrap this project... And stick to my A5 with a palmer pursuit brass barrel on it.

Thanks for the help, but this project just might not come into production due to exaggerated wishes of accuracy.

In the end, I guess a paintball is still, just a paintball.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:57 pm

ilovetoblowthingsup wrote:hmmm....

so I guess I'm scratching the sabot idea, i'd still like to do a cartridge design however.

So i guess... i'll do a LPHV gun. a fairly long barrel, no rifling, and some porting, and MAYBE a suppressor, due to... legality issues so i might not.

non-removable suppressors are fine...

then there's always raincovers... :wink:


Maybe I should just scrap this project... And stick to my A5 with a palmer pursuit brass barrel on it.

If you've got brass, stick to that, you can't get much better.
Add a Palmers Stab., do a bit of spring work, polish the internals, sweet spot the Stab and set the springs right and you'll get good about as good of accuracy as one can expect from a paintball.

Thanks for the help, but this project just might not come into production due to exaggerated wishes of accuracy.

I've been there...
the Cartridges part would be doable, and would allow for ridiculous or even ungodly rates of fire with out chopping paint! :twisted:

In the end, I guess a paintball is still, just a paintball.

yup...
But you'd be surprised what a Jell-o shell filled with cough-syrup thickened by crayon wax can do with a good, well tuned gun and a properly honed barrel. :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: cooptroop123 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:12 pm

rifling wont help, the best accuracy comes from a good paint bore match and good, spherical paint
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:53 pm

Use the heaviest winter paintballs you can find.
They tend to use a much more viscous paint wich doesn't move about as much in the ball.

I'd actualy suggest a higher pressure with lower volume, instead of previous suggestions, (if your making the marker) so you get the highest possible acceleration with the least pressure at the muzzle.
But if your using your paintball marker, that might be tricky to adjust on a mechanical tippmann, on an eletropneumatic marker you could just play around with the pressure and dwell times.

I did one try out a home made drag stabilized paintball projectile, but then fired it by mistake into a bush... I might try that again some time.

A tape tail behind a paintball just makes it worse, they fly all over the place.

The hammerhaed barrels are riffled iirc(with a twist rate, not straight grooves though) and are among the most accurate, but that is still just about 40-50m effective range.
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