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need help with mag design for vortex

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need help with mag design for vortex

Unread postAuthor: singularity » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:41 pm

its been a while since ive been on (53,000 new posts) but i have returned in need of help with my newest creation. its my fourth generation vortex gun, i based it roughly off the RC-P240. this particular gun body has been redesigned about 3 times and im tired of just scraping my projects so ive come here for help.

the gun is solid and completely adjustable and can be completely disassembled ive spent many hours finely machining each piece of PVC with my trusty dremel but i am having trouble creating a mag and a mag locking system. here are some pics

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4308.jpg">
upper receiver/barrel removed

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4309.jpg">
closeup vortex cap

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4311.jpg">
trigger/plumbing

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4312.jpg">

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4310.jpg">

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4313.jpg">

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4316.jpg">
original mag(above)

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4315.jpg">

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4314.jpg">
mag in gun

PROBLEM: mag not feeding correctly/ no way to lock mag in place

WHAT I NEED HELP WITH: designing a WORKING spring plunger system to feed the bbs and designing an easy to release mag locking system

any and all help is very appreciated ive been beating my head against this desk for three days because of all the failed designs ive attempted lol
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be sure to check out my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/ak-style-airsoft-vortex-gun-t10959.html">AK Styled Vortex Gun</a> and my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/at-4-t9627.html">AT-4 Rocket</a>

upcoming projects... finalized clip fed BBMG and ball point pen sniper
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Unread postAuthor: jor2daje » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:29 pm

Why dont you cut down a tee joint just above half way, you should be able to push the mag on and it should clip in. The too should connect to your barrel piece.
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clip holder.jpg
side view of a tee
clip holder.jpg (7.44 KiB) Viewed 1441 times
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Unread postAuthor: sputnick » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:19 am

I know how you could lock it on,

on the magazine, on an area that would slip into the "mag well", put a bolt in, and in the "mag well" carve a groove, that turns to a 90 degree angle, so you align the bolt with the groove, slide it in, then rotate it to lock it in.
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maggazine.JPG
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:15 am

The attached picture is terrible, but I will do my best to explain it. There is a "L" shaped metal rod attached just forward of the mag hole close to the trigger and pointing away from the trigger. to load a mag, you would push the 90 elbow into the hole with the mag perpendicular to the barrel. you would then rotate the mag 90 degrees until it is parallel.
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MAG.JPG
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Unread postAuthor: singularity » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:41 am

jor2daje - your tee idea is probably the easiest of all the designs mentioned and i like it a lot my only concern is will the pressure in the mag while the gun is firing force the mag out of the tee?

sputnick- this seems like the most plausible design to me my only concern is how to keep the bbs in the mag while the mag isnt in the gun and during the reloading process, any ideas?

ramses - i understand the design and was considering a similar one earlier but could not find the appropriate materials to construct it, if i were to use it i have a feeling i would need to get the tolerances just right or i would not get a good seal on the mag and the gun would have poor preformance

i think i should clarify what i need help on, the mag locking system was only half the problem

WHAT I NEED HELP WITH: locking the mag into the body of the gun AND keeping the bbs into the mag until it is loaded into the gun
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be sure to check out my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/ak-style-airsoft-vortex-gun-t10959.html">AK Styled Vortex Gun</a> and my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/at-4-t9627.html">AT-4 Rocket</a>

upcoming projects... finalized clip fed BBMG and ball point pen sniper
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:30 pm

I have an idea, but it requires the use of a tee rather than an elbow. It involves using a steel plug held in place with magnets. the magnets would need to be quite strong. depending on how tolerable leakage is, you could retain the plug by some other means.
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Attachments
mag 2.JPG
red=steel plug,
blue=pvc,
purple= magnets
yellow=bb's
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Unread postAuthor: colty-bear » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:49 pm

i am making a 177 cal cap right now but i dont understand how the mag works is there a spring in the back of the mag as a plunger do you need a skirt like on the vortex block? and if you need a spring plunger how do you load it without the bbs flyin out?
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Unread postAuthor: dudeman508 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:17 pm

why dont you use a threaded cap and mag, with an o ring seal.
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Unread postAuthor: singularity » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:49 pm

ramses your tee idea has inspired me, im working on a prototype right now

colty-bearwell the idea behind the spring plunger is to make it so the rifle consistently fires no matter how it is oriented, the gun can still function without it. a mag designed in this fashion is typically loaded by removing the back, taking out the spring plunger system, then loading the bbs, replacing the spring plunger then re-seating the cap with the spring compressed.

dudeman508 do you mean use a threaded cap as the vortex cap and put a threaded adapter on the mag? if that's what you mean then it wont be tactically useful. this rifle is being designed to be used in an airsoft game, it takes a while to screw in a mag in a game and sorta defeats the purpose of a mag system in my mind. My previous vortex had a threaded end cap that the bbs were loaded into and im trying to improve on that.
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be sure to check out my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/ak-style-airsoft-vortex-gun-t10959.html">AK Styled Vortex Gun</a> and my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/at-4-t9627.html">AT-4 Rocket</a>

upcoming projects... finalized clip fed BBMG and ball point pen sniper
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:38 pm

colty-bear wrote:i am making a 177 cal cap right now but i dont understand how the mag works is there a spring in the back of the mag as a plunger do you need a skirt like on the vortex block? and if you need a spring plunger how do you load it without the bbs flyin out?


Yes, a skirt is necessary, especially if a plunger is used

ramses your tee idea has inspired me, im working on a prototype right now


Don't get your hopes too high up, because with a semi-powerful spring will require an uber-strong magnet. Perhaps use a disk magnet as the plug. and square/bar magnets on the outside. I would suggest a secondary retention mechanism, just in case the magnet decides to remove itself at a time you don't want hundreds of BB's flowing all over the place... Like in your car or something...
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Unread postAuthor: singularity » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:31 pm

okay heres my mag lock design, it utilizes jor2daje tee idea and ramses. also i took a picture of the mags internals because thats what i need a little help with now. the mag is locking and the gun is firing perfectly currently.

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4321.jpg">
mag disassembled

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4322.jpg">
mag opening

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4323.jpg">
assembled mag

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4324.jpg">
gun with mag locking system

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4325.jpg">
mag locking system

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4326.jpg">
mag locking system

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4327.jpg">
mag locked

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4328.jpg">
mag locked

<img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/irwinner_2006/DSCN4329.jpg">
mag unlocked

NEW PROBLEM:
keeping the BBs in the mag while it is not in the gun and they are under the pressure of the spring piston set up in the mag, ie how do i keep the BBs in the mag while i have it in a mag pouch
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be sure to check out my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/ak-style-airsoft-vortex-gun-t10959.html">AK Styled Vortex Gun</a> and my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/at-4-t9627.html">AT-4 Rocket</a>

upcoming projects... finalized clip fed BBMG and ball point pen sniper
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Unread postAuthor: jor2daje » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:56 pm

To keep the bbs in the mag maybe you could try something like a bbq vent, on the rotating part you could have two small pegs that fit into notches in the vortex cap, when you rotate the clip to slide into the tee it would open the vent letting bbs in, the only real problem i think would be flow. Maybe instead of using two seperate holes like on a bbq vent you could use just two half circles opening 50% of the clip, this could also act as the limiter thing to stop flooding the vortex cap.

Sorry if I didnt explain very well
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:27 am

That's actually a really good idea. pic > 1k words:

Image
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Unread postAuthor: singularity » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:27 pm

that is freaking ingenious
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be sure to check out my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/ak-style-airsoft-vortex-gun-t10959.html">AK Styled Vortex Gun</a> and my <a href="http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/at-4-t9627.html">AT-4 Rocket</a>

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Unread postAuthor: django » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:30 am

Wow! great gun :D I might have to have another go at the Vortex Cap Design, I tried it twice previously but did not feed,I just noticed you have a skirt in the Vortex Cap: I didnt do this!. I was using .177 bbs too and it just would not aggitate them at all, has anyone here made a Vortex Cap BBMG running .177 bbs that feeds properly?
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