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X7 Phenom Valving

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X7 Phenom Valving

Unread postAuthor: Antonio » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:35 pm

Simpler than an automag valve.
I am working to get this valve working using standardized parts from the construction shop.
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x7phenomvalving.jpg
Will start a new post revolving around this valve from the Tippmann X7 phenom. It differs from an automag as it does not have a mechanical trigger latch.
ph5.jpg
internals
Last edited by Antonio on Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:47 pm

So what are you asking? What is broke about it that you need "standardized parts from the construction shop" to fix it???
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Unread postAuthor: Lockednloaded » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:53 pm

jrrdw wrote:So what are you asking? What is broke about it that you need "standardized parts from the construction shop" to fix it???


He's trying to build one from scratch, I don't believe he has the original valve

@Antonio, best of luck! Can't wait to see it done
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:13 pm

I'm going to speak from my posterior for second and say that, at first glance, that is the most over-engineered piece of crap I've even seen. I mean, holy hell, tippmann... Think you could add a few more moving parts, o-rings and springs in there anywhere?

They must make a ton of money factory-servicing those things when they break . And if they actually are reliable, I'd sure like to know how they do it.
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:15 pm

Fnord wrote:I'm going to speak from my posterior for second and say that, at first glance, that is the most over-engineered piece of crap I've even seen. I mean, holy hell, tippmann... Think you could add a few more moving parts, o-rings and springs in there anywhere?

They must make a ton of money factory-servicing those things when they break . And if they actually are reliable, I'd sure like to know how they do it.

No kidding!
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:36 pm

looks complicated but it is damn simple (blow forward bolt)

actually that's not a bad idea... similar to what I wanted to build a while ago the only difference is that I didn't want to trigger the valve mechanically

now that I think of it has many advantages

If I understand it correctly you trigger the valve by pulling the rod with an oring, right ? well if not that's how I would do it

EDIT
Yeap, so it seems
http://www.x7og.net/phenom-internals/27 ... rated.html

ohh and here is something jsr is going to love long time http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animati ... eXMPB4.gif
:D
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Unread postAuthor: Antonio » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:54 pm

Fnord wrote:I'm going to speak from my posterior for second  and say that, at first glance, that is the most over-engineered piece of crap I've even seen.  I mean, holy hell, tippmann... Think you could add a few more moving parts, o-rings and springs in there anywhere? 

They must make a ton of money factory-servicing those things when they break . And if they actually are reliable, I'd sure like to know how they do it.


In my opinion this valve system is perfectly engineered. It works like an automag(which was the first semi marker) but then has less mechanical wear due to the missing trigger latch.

Thos type of valve is not new, but how the engineers put it into this small package inspired me to build a valve along similar lines. My initial design will only have 4 orings of 2 different dimensions.

The main valve stem consists of 4 orings, the bolt has 1. Yes the regulator might look complex with all its orings. But dont be frightened by that. 

Want to see something complex? Look at the NT10 or 11 from Dye:
[url]
http://www.341.ch/gallery/main.php?g2_v ... alNumber=4[/url]

If I find the right orings for a low price I would be able to make a similar valve using the piping material I have used on my previous projects.
Any advice on cheap oring shops online? I live in Holland btw.
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:22 pm

Ok, so basically everything behind the chamber spool is part of an internal regulator? It's hard to tell when I can't even be sure of where the gas inlet is...

That simplifies things a bit, if it's just a reg, but I think I'd opt for an external reg that can be serviced more easily.

If you're going for something other than a paintball gun, or "just want to build because I can", then I can see why you might want to play with this valve design. However, I see no real need for it if you're only going to be using it for a game... For example;

1. Power and flow are not a concern... you're limited to 300fps anyway and a longer barrel will reduce muzzle blast inaccuracies.
2. Gas efficiency... Do you really need to worry about going through a 9-20oz tank in one game?
3. Ergonomics... It's nice and compact, though I'm not sure if the additional complexity is worth it.
4. Reliability... A simple hammer valve will probably still be shooting when you're being carted around in a wheelchair... But you won't have to worry about that since airguns will be banned by then.

Also, if you ever have to field-service that thing, you'll need to have your team help look for the parts you dropped in the grass.
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Unread postAuthor: Antonio » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:14 am

Fnord wrote:Ok, so basically everything behind the chamber spool is part of an internal regulator? It's hard to tell when I can't even be sure of where the gas inlet is...

That simplifies things a bit, if it's just a reg, but I think I'd opt for an external reg that can be serviced more easily.

If you're going for something other than a paintball gun, or "just want to build because I can", then I can see why you might want to play with this valve design. However, I see no real need for it if you're only going to be using it for a game... For example;

1. Power and flow are not a concern... you're limited to 300fps anyway and a longer barrel will reduce muzzle blast inaccuracies.
2. Gas efficiency... Do you really need to worry about going through a 9-20oz tank in one game?
3. Ergonomics... It's nice and compact, though I'm not sure if the additional complexity is worth it.
4. Reliability... A simple hammer valve will probably still be shooting when you're being carted around in a wheelchair... But you won't have to worry about that since airguns will be banned by then.

Also, if you ever have to field-service that thing, you'll need to have your team help look for the parts you dropped in the grass.


You have some against this marker. It is not about the brand nor paintball marker. For me its about the principle of the marker. I realized its damn difficult to make a gun that works auto or semi without the use of a regulator or the use of co2.
I would like to make a semi 6mm bb gun using this valve excluding the regulator for now, as it will still shoot semi.

You keep talking how complex this system is but you have not compared it to an automag for example.
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:25 pm

This is the best picture I could find... Is this the type automag valve you were referring to?

There is also this image which appears to be similar.

No ant, I can't compare the two because I can't figure out your diagram for certain. Based on appearance alone I'd say they are of roughly equal complexity.

I'm just kinda disappointed in tippmann given the "elite" reputation they seem to have online; this is the first time I've ever looked at the internals of a decent paintball marker and I honestly expected some extremely simple-but-brilliant designs... You know, when you look at something and think "wow, why didn't I think of that?".

I mean, hell, JSR and yourself have managed full-auto with basically ONE moving part and a spring... and even though they weren't practical it still illustrated how simple a design could be and still work. THAT was impressive to me.

Maybe you're getting the wrong message, I don't like to discourage people from building things, and I have nothing against you wanting to, but I don't like the complexity here.



On this site we already have grammar Nazis... well, I am the "moving-part" nazi:)
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:22 pm

I'm with Fnord here in that most paintball designs are horrendously overcomplicated to the extent that I would not even attempt to replicate then. So many seals and springs to go wrong, I'm amazed they last even a single paintball game.

That said, seeing a horrendously overcomplicated mechanism work is extremely satisfying, to each his own :)

POLAND_SPUD wrote:ohh and here is something jsr is going to love long time http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animati ... eXMPB4.gif
:D


JSR has been loving long time ;)
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Unread postAuthor: The Hellforger » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:09 pm

Fnord wrote:They must make a ton of money factory-servicing those things when they break . And if they actually are reliable, I'd sure like to know how they do it.


The posterior is definitely where this statement came from. Tippmann has probably the best customer service in the industry. Often times replacing broken parts for free no questions asked
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