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Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Post questions and info about combustion (flammable vapor) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: Cthulhu » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:36 pm

I've read all the '08 threads with the argument for and against Hydrogen as a combustion fuel, but recently there's been a lot of buzz on youtube for "HHO" generators and just today Peter Sripol released his next iteration of a fully contained HHO cannon.

I'm beginning to believe that hydrogen as a fuel for a combustion launcher is the easiest and most effective way of making a repeating combustion cannon (despite the issues with repeated fire as mentioned in the video). But the fact that such a tiny generator can produce enough fuel (which is already premixed with oxygen and therefore doesn't need a chamber fan) for more shots than a large battery can produce shows the potential this system has.
With some better heat insulation, a longer lasting electricity source, and a few more safety precautions, I'm certain that "HHO" cannons will soon become the easiest way of building semi-auto (and one day even full auto) combustion cannons.

Does anyone have experience with experimenting with these?
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:39 pm

The idea of having the fuel and the oxidant together, in quantity, mixed, and in the gaseous phase, is very dangerous, for example in the particular case of propane and air.
The HHO has the advantage of being all together and in much quantity, in the form of liquid water. You could suck the HHO once generated as much as necessary for a single shot, and compress it into a combustion chamber. It is a much less dangerous way because of the much smaller amounts involved.
I think that if there is a balance between what is produced by the HHO generator and what is consumed by the weapon, without accumulating it under pressure and in quantity, only in a combustion chamber designed to withstand the explosion, I find it interesting as a possibility. :roll:
No dosing device is necessary to achieve a stoichiometric mixture, only generate a little, then compress it and BUMM !! :bounce:
The advantage would be not in the power of the HHO, which is basically similar to an oxygen-propane mixture. The advantage is being able to handle a lot without it being explosive, and not needing measures to make it combustible once it passes through the cell. Divider
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: Cthulhu » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:15 pm

hectmarr wrote:The idea of having the fuel and the oxidant together, in quantity, mixed, and in the gaseous phase, is very dangerous, for example in the particular case of propane and air.


Very true! Although HHO is still safer than storing an Oxy-Propane mix in volume, you can increase the safety by having a switch on the power source to only produce the mix when fueling (the breakdown of water occurs as soon as electricity flows through the circuit).
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:29 pm

Cthulhu wrote:
hectmarr wrote:The idea of having the fuel and the oxidant together, in quantity, mixed, and in the gaseous phase, is very dangerous, for example in the particular case of propane and air.


Very true! Although HHO is still safer than storing an Oxy-Propane mix in volume, you can increase the safety by having a switch on the power source to only produce the mix when fueling (the breakdown of water occurs as soon as electricity flows through the circuit).

I have thought about this. It's for a weapon that uses HHO pressure, a hybrid that is what I like.
When you activate switch "B", HHO is generated until cylinder "C" is filled. This amount of HHO is what is used for a shot, no more. When the cylinder is full, the piston interrupts the current with switch "A", remaining full. Then, when pumping with the air pump, it sucks the HHO from cylinder "C" and presses it into the combustion chamber of the hybrid. Only generates the amount of HHO just for the shot.
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Arma híbrida  HHO.png
Híbrido HHO
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Last edited by hectmarr on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:28 pm

If you want to be taken seriously quit using the stupid name "HHO". There is no such thing. You are using 2H2 + O2.
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: wyz2285 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:04 pm

jimmy101 wrote:If you want to be taken seriously quit using the stupid name "HHO". There is no such thing. You are using 2H2 + O2.

Give him a break Jimmy, the guy is probably the only one around here who built a self contained hybrid repeater. He is more than worthy of being taken seriously.
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:17 pm

jimmy101 wrote:If you want to be taken seriously quit using the stupid name "HHO". There is no such thing. You are using 2H2 + O2.

I used the "denomination" HHO because it is shorter for me to write. It is understood that we refer to 2H2 + O2. It's just a naming mode used by almost everyone who plays with these hydrogen cells, not exact, but perfectly conventional.The term "popular" is accepted on the wiki, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen
On the other hand, whether they take me seriously or not, is the same. As long as I do it, with myself, it is enough to play with my creations. :)
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: mrfoo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:56 pm

wyz2285 wrote:
jimmy101 wrote:If you want to be taken seriously quit using the stupid name "HHO". There is no such thing. You are using 2H2 + O2.

Give him a break Jimmy, the guy is probably the only one around here who built a self contained hybrid repeater. He is more than worthy of being taken seriously.

Also, he's not using the term "Brown's Gas".

Obviously, the correct term would be "a mixture of H2 and O2 in a perfect stoichiometric ratio"

<runs away>
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: farcticox1 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm

Funny that the world and his neighbour refer to it as HHO or Browns Gas, I have no idea what it is. :shock:

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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:45 pm

Temptation to put about 50 psi the HHO inside a container of this type that shows the video, with the ammunition stuck, and then the container inside a tube. 10 bottles, "conditioned" :shock: and BUMMM BUMM BUMM :bounce:
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: Cthulhu » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:52 pm

jimmy101 wrote:If you want to be taken seriously quit using the stupid name "HHO". There is no such thing. You are using 2H2 + O2.

I completely agree, which is why my original post puts "HHO" in quotation marks. I believe a better term would be "stoichiometric Oxy-Hydrogen Gas" (SOG), but considering most of the internet calls it "HHO" I thought it would be better to refer to it as that on the forum.

hectmarr wrote:Temptation to put about 50 psi the HHO inside a container of this type that shows the video, with the ammunition stuck, and then the container inside a tube. 10 bottles, "conditioned" :shock: and BUMMM BUMM BUMM :bounce:


I agree! I've been fiddling around with ideas to make the collection and pressurization of the mix easier, but I can't seem to figure out a method that is easily streamlined. If a good method can be made, hydrogen hybrids would be very nice for quick loading and firing.
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:40 pm

The problem I see in your diagram is that the air pump sucks directly from the HHO generator. It would be very complicated to calibrate the production of hho so that it does not produce vacuum when vacuuming the pressure pump. If the pump sucks more than the generator can give, it probably would fill up with water.
The cylinder "C" that I drew in my diagram, eliminates this problem, because you have all the necessary amount of programmed hho that is needed, before aspirating and compressing with the "air" pump. We should say HHO bomb. The production is interrupted automatically when cylinder "C" is full. :roll:
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: Cthulhu » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:07 pm

hectmarr wrote:The problem I see in your diagram is that the air pump sucks directly from the HHO generator. It would be very complicated to calibrate the production of hho so that it does not produce vacuum when vacuuming the pressure pump.


Thats a really good point, maybe if the piston begins in the closed position and the pressure from the generated gas pushes it until it is filled, then the user pushes the piston in to pump the gas and once again allows the pressure generated by the cell to refill the piston body it would work. Either way, its definitely finicky and you design is far superior in functionality.
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: hectmarr » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:12 am

My opinion is that it is first necessary to produce the amount of hho that you want to burn, and that this production process stops automatically, and then compress it in the explosion chamber. The solenoid valve that activates together with the manual pushbutton "B" passes hho and moves the cylinder piston "C", from right to left, until this piston cuts the current when pressing and disconnecting contact "A", stopping the production of the generator, avoiding having the hho under pressure. When this happens, the solenoid valve is deactivated and closed, preventing the hho compression pump from sucking and generating vacuum in the generator. The hole with the small blue arrow lets out the air and avoids storing the hho. When you pump, the suction causes the piston to move to the right, until the entire hho is suctioned.
Surely there are several ways to do this, a matter of spinning the issue.
APART.
Here is a video of how a mixture of oxygen - propane, vs HHO, explodes. It has no scientific rigor, but for practical purposes, it is interesting.
https://youtu.be/R7hyLuHbv64?list=PLE30C3FD533F36B65
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Re: Self Contained Hydrogen Repeater

Unread postAuthor: mrfoo » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:48 am

hectmarr wrote:Here is a video of how a mixture of oxygen - propane, vs HHO, explodes. It has no scientific rigor, but for practical purposes, it is interesting.
https://youtu.be/R7hyLuHbv64?list=PLE30C3FD533F36B65

Yeah, it's deflagration vs detonation. A stoichiometric mix of O2 and propane burns. It burns pretty damn fast, but it burns.
2H2 + O2 (and O2 + Acetylene, for that matter) burns much, much, faster. The flame front is supersonic wrt the surrounding air. You can hear the difference - oxy-propane makes a "bang", hho makes a sharp "crack" very much like a gunshot.

Shock loading will be much, much, higher with HHO than with "normal" fuels, and the structure should be beefed up accordingly.

Can't find the papers for the moment, but from memory, laminar flame front speeds of propane in air at 1 bar ~ 0.4m/s, hydrogen in air ~100m/s, they're both much faster (between 4 and 10 times faster) in stoichiometric mixes with O2 and at pressure.
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