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Stun Gun?

Post questions and info about combustion (flammable vapor) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Stun Gun?

Unread postAuthor: LosBuenos » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:47 pm

where do you get a stun gun for ignition and how are they better than a BBQ igniter? do you set them up the same a BBQ igniters with electrodes going into the chamber and the spark jumping between them?
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Unread postAuthor: A-98 » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:29 pm

you can get one off the internet, but they might not be legal in your area.
they are better than a piezo because you get a bigger spart, and i beleive its longer lasting(not sure about that). plus you can jump multiple big gaps instead on one smaller one.
yes you set them up in the same was as a piezo sparker
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Unread postAuthor: fom » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:21 pm

A piezo produces 10 000-20 000 volts, a stun gun produces +100 000, allowing you to have more spark gaps and bigger gaps. For longer lasting, it depends, the circuits can easily be fried if you hold it too long, so it depends how you treat it.

www.launchpotatoes.com You can get the circuit there or the circuit in a project box.
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Unread postAuthor: willarddaniels » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:26 pm

Holding the spark for longer then .5 seconds can damage the circuitry in a stun gun, but the manufacturers still give descriptions of what happens to a victim if they receive a 3-5 second blast.
Check eBay, you can get a 100-200kV for $15-20
Furthermore, yup- what they said (A-98, fom)
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Unread postAuthor: crazyfreak0075 » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:31 pm

Hey though if you cant get a stun gun in your area, think about trying a camera flash setup.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:46 pm

Stun guns do not actually output much more voltage than BBQ piezoelectric igniters, and I dont see what advantages they really have, other than the novelty aspect. I dont think my BBQ igniter has misfired, ever.
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Unread postAuthor: willarddaniels » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:56 pm

Stun guns do not actually output much more voltage than BBQ piezoelectric igniters, and I dont see what advantages they really have, other than the novelty aspect. I dont think my BBQ igniter has misfired, ever.

Yes, they do produce more voltage. 20,000 does not equal 100,000+. You can produce sharper and more sparks when you offload the valtoage stored in the capacitors in a stun gun.
Math is math: 2<10+
I have never heard of either mis-firing. A mis-fire is when it fires when it is not supposed to. I've never seen either of these ignition sources mis-fire. My stungun has only not fired when I've needed to change the battery. When a piezo doesn't fire, you need a new piezo.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:03 pm

The dielectric breakdown voltage of air at STP is 1.1mm/kv. Can your "100,000v" stun gun produce enough voltage to jump a 4" spark gap?

A device as small as a stun gun will produce around 20-25kv on average. BBQ piezoelectric igniters produce 15-20kv on average. Not much of a difference really. You need something on the order of a Tesla coil to produce hundreds of kilovolts.

Oh, and a "misfire" occurs when a launcher fails to fire at the instance you want it to. Stun guns and piezo igniters will rarely fail. When a piezo fails to fire, it means you have used it several thousand times.
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Unread postAuthor: fom » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:27 pm

A misfire is defined as:

# an explosion that fails to occur
# fail to fire or detonate; "The guns misfired"
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Unread postAuthor: frankrede » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:41 pm

or under 10 times;)
But that was a defective one
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Unread postAuthor: willarddaniels » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:51 pm

I am going to rant a bit here...
I am usually a lot more understanding and patient than this, but SB15 -you are really missing the point of my post.

I apologize if my post was confusing, but yes, I understand the concept of misfire. Thank you all for opening your webster's and defining the term. I was obviously focusing on the aspect of the gun failing to fire as a result of a fault in the ignition system, comparing the two ignition sources- as was requested.
If you guys flame me for answering a question without going into detail of every aspect and providing thermoreactive computations and dielectric breakdowns, flame me all the more. It just shows your own anal retentiveness and inability to break something complex down into something that is simple and easy for others to understand.

Furthermore, when I say math is math, it does not mean that I believe that electricity behaves in a linear, one-dimensional way. I am stating that regardless of how long a spark is, You can get a hotter and more sparks from a 100,000+ volt source than that from a 20,000 volt. And no, I am not going to get into a dispute over how much voltage a stun gun actually puts out.

On my cannons, I usually use a piezo because of their cost, reliability and ease of operation. The biggest drawback of a stungun is having to replace/recharge batteries. I do use them on bigger cannons and where remote firing is desired. But, yeah, they are mainly for the 'I use a stun gun. nyeah nyeah."
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:45 pm

willarddaniels wrote:I am going to rant a bit here...
I am usually a lot more understanding and patient than this, but SB15 -you are really missing the point of my post.


I missed the point? No, I think I understood your point quite well. You were trying to point out using misleading statements the neither ignition source fails to fire on a regular basis, and you were also attempting to put into perspective the fact that a stun gun provides more powerful sparks than a BBQ piezo using the term voltage. How about you try "amperage" instead?

willarddaniels wrote:I apologize if my post was confusing, but yes, I understand the concept of misfire. Thank you all for opening your webster's and defining the term. I was obviously focusing on the aspect of the gun failing to fire as a result of a fault in the ignition system, comparing the two ignition sources- as was requested.


This entirely contradicts your previous statement, nomatter what perspective you view it from. How do "failing to fire" and "firing when you dont intend it to" directly relate? They dont. I realize that you intended to state what I refered to in my last post, but when you do so, please do it in a manner that doesnt misguide people.

willarddaniels wrote:If you guys flame me for answering a question without going into detail of every aspect and providing thermoreactive computations and dielectric breakdowns, flame me all the more. It just shows your own anal retentiveness and inability to break something complex down into something that is simple and easy for others to understand.


Simple and easy is often the best way, but only when it is correct. In this case, "simple and easy" as defined by the majority, is not really acceptable.

willarddaniels wrote:Furthermore, when I say math is math, it does not mean that I believe that electricity behaves in a linear, one-dimensional way. I am stating that regardless of how long a spark is, You can get a hotter and more sparks from a 100,000+ volt source than that from a 20,000 volt. And no, I am not going to get into a dispute over how much voltage a stun gun actually puts out.


The dielectric breakdown of air is linear, and directly proportional to the change in voltage. I will agree that a 100,000 volt source will be able to create much larger sparks than a 20,000 volt source, but that is irrelevant when you consider the fact that all evidence concerning stun guns suggests that they do not output anywhere near that voltage. The relative heat of a spark is determined by amperage, of which a stun gun outputs more, but either source is sufficient when it comes to this.
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Unread postAuthor: willarddaniels » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:07 am

LosBuenos, I hope that the meaningful posts in your thread provided you some good feedback. I apologize to you for my rant and possibly taking away from the answers you were seeking, with real intent.

****
Again, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. It sorrows me that some are not willing to accept that apology or to look objectively at what is being said. Also, I will restate that I am not wanting to get into a debate over any of these items.

I have never claimed to be an expert on anything in these forums and I try to help those out who are seeking advice and to provide easy to comprehend answers to direct questions. I am not always successful, and I apologize for being a frail human. This is what I view this forum to be; it is a way for people to collaborate with others who share similar interests.

SpudBlaster15, I will try to be more clear in future posts, especially in the areas you are passionate about. I hope you did not take my rant personally, it really was not intended that way. In my blindness, I tripped over my own words instead of thinking them through... one reason ranting isn't always a good thing to do.
I respectfully ask you to be more objective in how you comprehend what others are trying to say, in the future.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:52 am

Fair enough, I accept your apology, and realize your point involving my comprehension of your post. I suppose the best thing to do at this point would be to move on, as there really isnt much more to be said.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:05 am

I don't really see a benefit in a stungun spark over piezos aside from having a softer trigger and a few lights and switches on the side.

How many sparks are used for fuel combustion in engines? One.

Will a spark that exists for a longer period of time cause fuel to burn faster? No. The fuel in the vicinity of the initial spark is already gone.

Does it make a *hotter* spark? Well look at it this way: use a match and a blowtorch to ignite separate rooms filled with gas. Which one won't cause it to explode?
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