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laminating / stock building.(LOG)

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laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:44 pm

I started building a stock, because I want to be a gunsmith when I get older. I figured showing how to make the stock would be useful for people on here because airguns sometimes need a good stock.( Im sorry I do not have pictures of the laminating of the stock, I forgot at that time.)

To start, you should select a wood that will be able to hold your fixtures without cracking after the shot. (i will be using bullet comparisons, so sorry to people in places where guns are banned) When selecting a wood or material, you must pick one that will not break, so if you are making a *gun where the projectile will create strong forces, such as a .30-06, you do not want to use a cracked or soft wood. pine is usually not a good choice for a *gun like that (or really any *gun because of its softness). With a recoil projectile like a .22 things become more flexible, because it is only a few lbs exerted back, not like 20 or so when compared to a .30-06. If using wood, a stock should have a grain running along the handle/grip area, if the grain is across there, it has the potential to shatter after a shot, or slight misuse.
Stock.PNG
the red shows the grain direction, how it should flow through the wrist of the gun

to get the grain pattern it is often a good idea to take a DAMP towel to the grain to check the area in question. (must also be free of large knots, they are brittle and often crack the stock later). you should then lay a pattern down to check how the grain will run through your design. (MidwayUSA chanel on youtube is a great reference for gunsmithing, though a few videos are only for those with special machinery, but can be adapted to fit your designs)Unfortunately I have a bedtime, so that is all for now.
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Last edited by dart guy on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: laminating / stock building.

Unread postAuthor: bravootome » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:24 pm

It looks perfect, i like building stocks. I made like 10 so far( only one ended up looking nice, my friend do not trust that its made by me) The best wood for tht is beech wood- it easy to work with it, it never cracks when working with, it has a beaytiful color and grain, and it is a very very strong wood....
I used it for my 6 mm QEV
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Re: laminating / stock building.

Unread postAuthor: cammyd32 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:57 am

Dart guy, I hate to be a downer here but It's usually customary to finish your own work before trying to advise others about the process.

I have watched quite a few stock building tutorials recently and it sounds like you are just quoting things from various videos, even the picture you put is taken off google, I know you're trying to be helpful but unless you have anything new to add, it's all rather smoke blowy again.

Gippeto gave you a great deal the other week, I'm sure if you're extra nice to him he will still go ahead with it, I suggest putting everything else aside and putting all your effort into that, then we will stop pestering you about it, and you'll have a nice cannon to boot.
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Re: laminating / stock building.

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:00 pm

I'm building one right now, I just had to go to bed, it is for a .22 rifle. I'm going to do the next section of the how to soon.
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Re: laminating / stock building.

Unread postAuthor: cammyd32 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:22 am

Finish your own work: referring to your gun stock.
Finish that, then it would have made sense to put up a thread something along the lines of "stock building, things I learn't along the way" or "How I built my gun stock", or hell even "Stock buildlog"

By starting a thread called "laminating / stock building" then proceeding to state how this is a 'how to/tutorial' implies you are experienced in making stocks, which isn't the case.
Not only that but you then proceed to parrot well known videos and websites, implying that this knowledge was a fruit of your own labors and experiences, which again, it's not.

Long story short, before you try trying to advise others on how to build things, finish your own first.
Otherwise not only are you just parroting, you could be giving mis-information or guiding people down the wrong pathway.
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:18 pm

image.jpg
Here cammy I fixed it, it is a log now. I've also built a couple of stocks before for airsoft guns, but I broke them so I threw them away. Here is the stock I'm making with the damp paper towel on the grain to check it, sorry I couldn't really do that while it was in the vice when I started this thread, which I'm going by the process, I didn't want to do more yet because I couldn't go on my laptop. Sorry for your inconvienience.
(Ps. Maybe you should be a bit more encouraging instead of trying to violently shoot down my thread, because it is actually useful, and if I forget something, someone else can put it in. The reason forums exist.)
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: cammyd32 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:49 pm

Progress!, :wink:

Forgive me if I came across as trying to shoot down your thread, it comes across that a lot of the threads you start never actually come to actual results.
And it can be appreciated that, from my perspective, that the lack of your own content at the start had me skeptical, especially seeing as it was started only a few days after your most recent thread.

I felt a bit of.. persistence.. might have persuaded some results, which it has, clearly.
Looking forward to seeing it finished.
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

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laminating / stock building.(LOG) Pt2

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:28 pm

No problem man, its ok, I kinda am a spudfiles failure. I just was going in order and was pressed for time.

back on topic: design your stock AROUND YOUR *GUN! if you design your stock first, your gun becomes much harder and time consuming. Also borrowing ideas from other guns will help you create your own style,my style leans toward the l-96 with a thumb hole. When i started to design my gun i got graph paper out and got to work, the reason I say graph paper is that it is helpful for drawing lines and getting a size estimate without getting rulers and such. When drafting your stock, lay out the important parts you are going to use, like triggers mech (can be designed and made while drafting), barrel, chamber and holding fixtures. air guns have many more parts, but not all are applicable to every build. and remember the only one who needs to understand your design are the people working on it(depending on what you can accomplish on your own).
DRAFTING REQUIRES:
A Ruler/measuring stick
A pencil
paper for plans
Your mostly assembled gun
problem solving and imagination
FullSizeRender.jpg
part 1
FullSizeRender.jpg
part 2


Make sure you know what you want to make your stock from first, and also make sure you leave enough material to hold the force, exerted from the anchor points in your design. and one last thing, while drafting, log your moving parts, look at the trigger, I designed it to have a hollow for the trigger to move freely and it is designed based on my ability to work wood.
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:56 pm

I was trying not to double post, sorry for the delay.

the next thing i like to do after drafting is to create a pattern that is good to lay out on the wood. I like a paper one because i can cut through the paper, so i can leave an edge away from the line that is 1/4" to 3/8" from the pencil lines. This is important if using a saw that may cut not exactly 90 degrees or distort in the wood blank, like a band saw, handsaw without a jig, or other things like it.

To make my stock, I laminated two pieces of poplar together to make my desired thickness. to determine the desired thickness for your wood blank, first you must determine how it will be put together. If pieces are going to be made separate from the stock, such as my cheek rest is (I left a space in the form of an aluminum plate) make sure you draft in cutting space, and spaces for mounting that do not compromise the stock's integrity. To avoid compromising the stock, you can add pieces of metal and epoxy to the area that needs to be strengthened (drafting it in is a good idea), again, midway usa has a video on it that is better than any video I can currently make. A good rule to keep yourself safe for wood is to make the spots for mounting away from knots or other imperfections and wider than you think they need to be, like 1/4" (1/2" before shaping) wider on a non load bearing area, like the fore-end of the stock(the part of stock in front of mounting pieces)
hardware.PNG
non load bearing, load bearing mounting hardware
and for the load bearing parts should have a lot of material around them, like at least 1/2" (3/4" before shaping) on each side of the mounting pieces and should be as reinforced as much as possible to prevent breakage, both of my mounting hardware will have at least 3/4 an inch on each side after finished.

When laminating two pieces of wood together, it is good to have a lot of clamps, like 1 for each 4 inch area, so if you are making a stock like mine, you should, have a clamp every four inches down, and towards the back of the stock there should be clamps to the middle of the stock. to prepare the wood, make sure the surfaces are clean for gluing, if they are not clean and do not have a good bonding face it will create weak areas. Another good rule, have enough glue to seep out the edges when tightly clamped. the whole are must be evenly coated to prevent air bubbles, i coat both sides with a visible layer of glue that I rubbed into the wood using Clean rubber gloves. the glue and bonding surfaces should remain unhandled by hands, which could spread oils. after the gluing, make sure there is alot of pressure, holding the stock together, the end result is a thin, almost disappearing glue line.
glue.PNG
the glue line runs the long way
glue.PNG (410.38 KiB) Viewed 1509 times
.Just remember the more area being held together the longer the glue takes to dry because there is more glue to oxidize, making it dry from outside to inside. after a few days to 2 weeks depending on the glue and surface area being glued. keep the wood from getting wet, too cold or too hot, and receiving shocks(like dropping) .to do the clamping, i did it a much less desirable way, i used a lot of screws to hold it together to start with, holding the two large piece of wood and letting them to dry for a few days. then i took the screws out when the glue was in a plastic state in the center, which created a nice edge. then i cut the stock out and clamped it, on the areas that needed more pressure, like the stuff that was on the inner part of the wood blank. then i let it dry for a few more days so that it could cure. i do not recommend the clamping method i used because it is more unpredictable in the final result.( if not enough pressure is applied by the screws is not enough, there will be too much excess glue, if it is taken off to late it will not be able to be compressed in the plastic state, and the less uniform pressures may spread the wood in certain areas.
image1.JPG
with screws removed and template glued on
(vices work just like clamps if you need some, i have three random vices so i used those for lack of clamps)
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i later clamped the thick part of the stock about 10h later using the c clamps and a vise.
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG) Pt2

Unread postAuthor: bravootome » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:07 am

Will it look like this ? :)
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: mrfoo » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:23 pm

Just remember the more area being held together the longer the glue takes to dry because there is more glue to oxidize, making it dry from outside to inside. after a few days to 2 weeks depending on the glue and surface area being glued.

*Ahem* bullhockey. The amount of time you need to leave is very much dependent on the glue you're using, and the prep you've carried out. However, if you're having to wait days or weeks for your glue to set, you're using the wrong glue.

There's pretty much 4 types of glue you're gonna use for lamination, but for most people* it comes down to two - PVA and epoxy, and frankly I'd recommend PVA. Titebond III, basically, or the local equivalent if you're in yurp (Bostik Super Agobois Mono / Sader R64 are good). You want a minimum of D3 humidity resistance, ideally D4.

DO NOT USE POLYEURETHANE GLUE, it foams and is useless for lamination. You're better off with a D3 PVA than a D4 PU.

Surface prep requires a pair of clean, machined mating surfaces. And I do mean "mating". If you're going to need to clamp hard enough to bend the blanks to get them to mate properly, you'll never get good results - you'll end up with voids, unresolved internal forces post-layup, and a layup that falls apart eventually. Once they mate, a light surface plane and sanding the mating surfaces with 120 grit is enough.

Apply a very thin, uniform layer of PVA to each (ideally with a roller, but a scraper will do), place them together and press. Clamping pressure is odd - too much is bad, you really only need enough to hold the surfaces together. I'll say it again, if you need more pressure than that, your prep work is not good enough. Vacuum pressing is enough. You do have a fridge pump, right?

Press time depends on the exact glue you're using, temperature and wood, D64 with hardwood is 30 minutes at 20°C, and full strength is achieved 24 hours later.

Prep and layup are more or less the same for epoxy, except epoxy has a longer press time, and may require additional sitting time at 20°C+ to reach full hardness.

* The others are contact cements and urea formaldehyde resins; if you have access to these, you probably already know how and why you'd use them
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: dart guy » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:44 pm

Not sure where wood glue fits into that, all i know is that one takes a while because it requires interaction with the molecules that make it hard, i did say i was using wood glue right?

also, bravatoom, you are one master stock builder.
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Re: laminating / stock building.(LOG)

Unread postAuthor: mrfoo » Fri May 01, 2015 12:59 am

dart guy wrote:Not sure where wood glue fits into that, all i know is that one takes a while because it requires interaction with the molecules that make it hard, i did say i was using wood glue right?

Yeah, wood glue is kinda implied given that you were talking about gluing wood together. If you reread what I wrote, mentally substituting "wood glue" every time I mention "glue", you might understand where, exactly, wood glue "fits into that".

You'll notice I was recommending 2 specific brands of glue - Titebond III and Sader R64, also sold as Bostik Super Agobois Mono and lord knows what else in other markets. Both of these are set-waterproof (D4 / ASTM D4326) PVA wood glues for interior and exterior applications, and perfectly usable for lamination. Neither of them require more than 24 hours to set, even when used for making curved surfaces from laminations of 8'x4' ply sheets. I would personally recommend either of these glues for 99% of general woodworking applications.

I'll say it again. If, in a lamination application, the glue you are using requires more than 24 hours to set harder than the wood you're glueing, you are using the wrong glue.
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