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How to make an electrolysis machine

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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:42 pm

I made a H2 reactor to adapt in a cannon but i sleep thinking on other thing... Why are we using gas as a fuel...
First place let´s compare the density of a gas with a liquid one...
What did Nasa when wanted increase the mass of fuel inside the fuel chamber in a shuttle...?
they began to use liquid fuel to could in the same volume hade much more fuel...
what i take and my revolutionary idea in this world is that we may use a liquid fuel and i have already thought in a simple way to do that...
remember one simple detail, look at the ergonomic point of a spud gun...??
WAF??
a gas bottle is so big and reduce quality of a cannon...
This year I will show you what i´m working on...

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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:33 pm

First off I'm not sure if I'm suppoused to take your post seriously or not, since it seems rather like an advert.

Are you suggesting a hybrid with high-pressure hydrogen and oxygen tanks attached? I'm sure most of us haven't even considered this, probably because we're not shooting for portability, and most of us don't have the machining capability to make a chamber that can handle the post-combustion pressures created by a combustion when both gases are near their vapor pressure in the chamber.

Increased energy density is certainly something to pursue, but I think you may be going about it the wrong way...
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:53 pm

A liquid hydrocarbon mixed in proper proportions with a liquid oxidizer is not a good idea. The reaction can be too energetic for a hand held cannon and can behave like many binary solid mixtures that is out of the scope of Spudfiles. Some oxidizers and hydrocarbons react on contact. No ignition is required.
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Unread postAuthor: DYI » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:04 pm

We're using gases because spudguns are, necessarily, gas guns. Your "revolutionary" idea of a liquid fueled gun has been around in a serious form ever since liquid fueled rockets have been around, and likely longer. Many have been built, and they can perform much better than common solid propellants when done properly. They're still impractical though, not for the reasons that Tech suggested so much as the simple fact that high pressure or cryogenic substances are harder to handle than powdered solids.

"Too energetic for a hand cannon" is a ridiculous statement. If the generated pressure is too high, use less of it, or build a stronger hand cannon. It's like saying "lead is too dense to carry on a motorcycle".

A liquid hydrocarbon mixed in "proper" proportions with a liquid oxidizer is a fine idea, so long as one is careful to prevent detonations and to properly handle the fuels involved. Unfortunately, most liquid oxidizers are difficult to handle - WFNA and RFNA are highly corrosive to almost anything, and quite toxic. NTO has the same problems. Hydrogen peroxide must be properly stabilized (also toxic), and liquid oxygen is cryogenic. There's really no easy solution here. If you ever make an H2O2/gasoline powered cannon though, be sure to let me know :D
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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:47 am

you did not understand what i said, because i didnt tell you what im doing...
think in the diesel engine...you know... the fuel is not a gas but inside the piston works like that...

Sure I will show you :D

I will show you also my bazuca that looks like a really one...
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Unread postAuthor: DYI » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:10 am

you did not understand what i said, because i didnt tell you what im doing...
think in the diesel engine...you know... the fuel is not a gas but inside the piston works like that...


Ah... well, that's boring. You do realize that the propane typically used in combustion guns is stored as a liquid in the tank, right? Using gasoline instead of propane would only gain about 20% more energy storage per unit volume (34.8MJ/L vs. 29MJ/L), and requires proper fuel injection for mixing. Hardly revolutionary, or even worthwhile.
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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:55 am

spray system...this is what i am talking about...

When the (for an example) gasoline goes inside the chamber like a gas because my system allow this...at the same time, the ignition circuit turns on....because i invent one thing that i called DAV "double-acting valve" and the same action i mean when i press the valve to the fuel goes inside the chamber, the ignition circuit turn on and we have the best exlosion we can get...

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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:18 am

Can you be anymore vague?

Diesel is ignited by heat of compression. Fuel injection is common, but only fuel properly mixed with the oxygen burns the best. Ignition during injection can hardly be called an explosion.

There is a sound engineering reason fuel injection cars inject before the compression stroke and ignition.

Diesels inject on compression to prevent the explosion and control the timing. It burns on injection.

I have toyed with making a gasoline fuel injected combustion, but even that would have ignition well after injection to permit the fuel mist to evaporate and mix before ignition. Not many users here have attempted this because of the circuitry required to properly meter and inject the gasoline. Gas mixtures are very unforgiving and harder to get right than propane.
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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:45 am

"Ignition during injection can hardly be called an explosion" why??
look i am not talking about a hybrid gun.... this is a combustion gun, and it works very well...
what you think of this? only an idea... put a fan under the gasoline pipe or even best under the gasoline dropper and when the small but fast fan start to spin, it is enough to spread micro droplets of gasoline inside the chamber...

This is an old idea i had last year....

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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:51 am

Looks like RJB doesn't really know what he is talking about. Probably thinks "HHO" is a revolutionary fuel as well.

Besides, propane has virtually the same energy content as does gasoline (scaled to the amount of oxygen available in the chamber). Add in the extremely tricky problem of injecting the correct amount of a liquid fuel (probably in the vicinity of a single drop) and propane is much more practical than any liquid.
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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:40 pm

Looks like jimmy doesn't really know what he is talking about :D
be educated is very nice...ok??

Look if you don´t understant my point...its your problem...

My objective is reduce de size of a spud gun, starting with the size of the fuel chambers....

I respect you, you respect me ok?


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Unread postAuthor: DYI » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:55 pm

My objective is reduce the size of a spud gun, starting with the size of the fuel chambers....


RJB, did you totally ignore my previous post? You'll reduce fuel chamber size by roughly 20% over propane. If you're building a system where that 20% is an issue, then it's necessary. But it isn't revolutionary.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:33 pm

Then why not quit f'ing with changes of a piddly 20% and switch to a hybrid?

Off the shelf parts will get you to a couple X without any problems, that's increasing the energy in the chamber by a couple hundred percent instead of farting around for a basically insignificant increase of 20% increase.

Or, drop air as the oxidzer and switch to pure O<sub>2</sub>. That'll boost the energy in the chamber by about 500%. Again, why fart around with a basically insignificant increase of 20%?

Have you chrony'd your setup yet? What's the shot to shot variation in muzzle energy? With spuds as ammo it is probably 20%. With more consistent ammo it is probably 5-10%. In other words, the pidly little 20% increase is mostly lost in shot to shot variability.

Gasoline has no significant advantages as a fuel compared to propane or butane or any other hydrocarbon. Gasoline has several disadvantages compared to gaseous fuels.

What did Nasa (sic) when wanted increase the mass of fuel inside the fuel chamber in a shuttle...?

They did exactly what 99.9999% of combustion spudders do, they took a fuel that is a gas at normal conditions and compressed it down to a liquid. What the heck do you think is inside a propane cylinder or a butane lighter? NASA also took the oxidizer, another gas at normal conditions, and compressed it down to a liquid. Did that process increase the specific energy of the fuel? Nope. It just made containment more efficient.

You might want to do a bit'o study on basic science.

There is nothing you have come up with that others spudders didn't figure out decades ago. Gasoline as fuel? Been Done. Using an automotive fuel injection system as a meter? Been Done. Using multiple electronic ignitions? Been Done.

Think a spud gun chamber will perform like the cylinder in a gasoline engine? Nope. Completely different things, different thermal ranges, different mixing characteristics, different compression ratios and a zillion other things.

Edit: NASA, not TNASA
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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:45 pm

And if I make a diferent chamber more ergonomic and with more volume than a normal gas bottle... You have now more power and more quality in that gun talking also about aesthetic perspective...
Do you need to mix the gas with the air so well?? explain me this please because my new cannons don´t have fans and they work very well...

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Unread postAuthor: RJB INDUSTRIES » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:10 pm

To Mr.jimmy

Thank you for your concern but I understand basic science and advanced too ...
but I am humble and patient too ...
and we can discuss this situation without rancor and anger some of you ...
I know perfectly that within the lighters, for example, butane is in liquid state ... only if I was blind I did not knew ... is more practical work with drops of gasoline than working with gas cylinders, which are much heavier ...
How you meter or control the variation in muzzle energy?
I had some ideas but if you can teach me something more practical ...
I would appreciate

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