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Thoughts on real rifle barrels and hybrids

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: spudtyrrant » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:21 pm

mark.f wrote:Well, I don't know about that, but a rifled ball ammo sounds a bit useless

i beg to differ look at the difference in accuracy between the kentucky rifle and the brown bess musket.

There were confirmed kills well over 400 yards with the kentucky look at the brown bess if you even could hit a man sized target out to 80 yards you were lucky.

They both shot ball ammo true they being different calibers but it can still make an amazing difference by just shooting with rifling
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:35 pm

jonnyboy wrote:
ball ammo is loaded with a "patch" which grips the rifling.


I have to disagree on this one. :? Even though my knowledge of firearms is almost non existent I do know that ball ammo in a rifled barrel = smooth bore barrel :D . Also just like in airsoft because its a sphere its going to be affected by spin just like an airsoft bb with hop up. So I know the ammo is made smaller than the barrel so could the patch be to make sure it doesn't damage the rifling?

I think he's referring to this:
Wikipedia wrote:Fitting the projectile to the bore
The original firearms were loaded from the muzzle by forcing a ball from the muzzle to the breech. Whether using a rifled or smooth bore, a good fit was needed to seal the bore and provide the best possible accuracy from the gun. To ease the force required to load the projectile, these early guns used an undersized ball, and a patch made of cloth, paper, or leather to fill the windage (the gap between the ball and the walls of the bore). The patch provided some degree of sealing, kept the ball seated on the charge of black powder, and kept the ball concentric to the bore. In rifled barrels, the patch also provided a means to transfer the spin from the rifling to the bullet, as the patch is engraved rather than the ball. Until the advent of the hollow-base Minié ball, which obturates upon firing to seal the bore and engage the rifling, the patch provided the best means of getting the projectile to engage the rifling.[6]
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Unread postAuthor: THUNDERLORD » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:59 pm

MrCrowley wrote:......


hOLY Sh!T!!! Mr.C. Is back!!! :D :D :D

Welcome back my good man!!!
Not sure where you were...
I was about to flip out at times wondering.
Just cool you're back!!!

BTW, maybe I should make a seperate post:
"MrCrowley IS BACK MF'rs!!!" :wink: IDK :D 8)
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Unread postAuthor: THUNDERLORD » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:26 pm

Double because I saw "MrCrowley" and got excited.
Just read through the thread though.

Any how, there's nothing wrong with using firearm barrels.
They're actually the best one can find really.

IMO the 1000PSI figure is nonsense because CO2 doesn't even have that much and many are rifled so...
Been thinking of using a surplus AK barrel in 7.62mm for a while myself.
The advantage is the chamber is "bottle-necked", so it has space for a BFB,threads, etc.
There are .30 cal buckshots that will fit. Or .308 diameter dies for cylindrical are plentiful too.

Even at airgun pressure, I'd be more worried about the soft lead "leading" the bore, than not becoming rifled.

Actually there's been criticism about using firearm barrels in air designs because they're designed to withstand heat.
So??? You get a stronger "Bull barrel" then.
As far as the .243 barrel I say get it. Won't be a bad investment IMO.
BTW, hope you saw my other reply!!! 8)
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:30 am

THUNDERLORD wrote:Double because I saw "MrCrowley" and got excited.

Great, now we've got to get you neutered.

IMO the 1000PSI figure is nonsense because CO2 doesn't even have that much and many are rifled so...

But CO2 rifles use Diablo pellets, which are designed to rifle at much lower pressures.

Try loading a "Magnum" airgun bullet into a CO2 rifle, and it'll probably get stuck or have a very low energy because of the wasted energy through friction and rifling of the bullet.
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Unread postAuthor: cdheller » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:58 am

for a few years muzzle loading shooters have been using plastic sabots instead of patches.
similar to a plastic shot cup replacing wads in a shotgun shell.
Although the 243 is a good buy the bullets from the main bullet manufactures for reloading will have a copper jacket .
(copper)jacketed bullets are used for higher velocity.
If I remember right my 243 reloads run from 3600 to3950 fps.
lead cast bullets are more of a sub 1200fps thing,even with a gas check swaged on.
to the best of my knowledge gas checks don't bring a better seal into the game but prevent leading up the barrel mainly by preventing molten lead from base of bullet/hot gas .
I'm not up on hollow base bullets so much but used to see 38 wadcutters w a cup at base ,along with some muzzle loading bullets

the companies that make reloading components (bullets,powder) publish guides and info available online .

Maybe a good starting point.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:27 pm

cdheller wrote:to the best of my knowledge gas checks don't bring a better seal into the game but prevent leading up the barrel mainly by preventing molten lead from base of bullet/hot gas.

Unfortunately, that's the old understanding of things and these days it's understood that it's nothing to do with the base of the bullet melting.

It works by providing a better seal which stops the high pressure gasses escaping past the bullet - which (if they were escaping) would erode the side of the bullet by much the same method as a "gas axe" would. This leads the bore and causes instability in the bullet.

The better seal also helps the bullet grip the rifling and the reduction in blowby can help velocity.
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Unread postAuthor: jonnyboy » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:12 pm

Even at airgun pressure, I'd be more worried about the soft lead "leading" the bore, than not becoming rifled.

Leading is a good thing in airguns I assume it holds true for firearms. A barrel that has just been cleaned will be outperformed by a barrel with a few hundred pellets through it. Now after about 1000 shots a light cleaning is good so it doesn't get too much lead in it.
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mobile chernobyl wrote:I can shoot a Canuter Valve off my '82 Chevy Ram F150 AT LEAST 3/4 Mile with 'ma cannon made of soup cans duct taped together, then I just squirt some bacardi 151 in the chamber and hold up my cigarrete lighta and WHOOSH! That thing flies at least 3/4 mile
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Unread postAuthor: jonnyboy » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:20 pm

Even at airgun pressure, I'd be more worried about the soft lead "leading" the bore, than not becoming rifled.

Leading is a good thing in airguns I assume it holds true for firearms. A barrel that has just been cleaned will be outperformed by a barrel with a few hundred pellets through it. Now after about 1000 shots a light cleaning is good so it doesn't get too much lead in it.
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mobile chernobyl wrote:I can shoot a Canuter Valve off my '82 Chevy Ram F150 AT LEAST 3/4 Mile with 'ma cannon made of soup cans duct taped together, then I just squirt some bacardi 151 in the chamber and hold up my cigarrete lighta and WHOOSH! That thing flies at least 3/4 mile
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Unread postAuthor: THUNDERLORD » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:31 pm

Ragnarok wrote:Great, now we've got to get you neutered....


Hope you understand I HAVE GOT TO DISAGREE ON SOMETHING now!!!
So,:

...But CO2 rifles use Diablo pellets, which are designed to rifle at much lower pressures.

Try loading a "Magnum" airgun bullet into a CO2 rifle, and it'll probably get stuck or have a very low energy because of the wasted energy through friction and rifling of the bullet.


Then why does Cabelas and other places sell a CO2 12 gram set up similar to a tire inflator,
only, It's purpose...Clearing lodged bullets from muzzleloading Black Powder guns, by threading into the nipple threads where the firing cap goes???

Besides that, what is the antimony or other alloy level in those "fancy" pellets...[fancy pants(?)],
I certainly did not craft them and certainly could make one softer ..easily...I am sure you could too, so why the "(?)"...?

Oh, @ MrC, [Awesome you're back still]...Another advantage of cased firearm barrels is that a spent shell can be modded easily (filled w/epoxy, cast aluminum etc. and converted into a bolt ...Easily...cheaply and prefect fit...plenty, plenty of room for steel removal too... factory barrels are great, surplus military barrels (new condition), better.
For large bore, shotgun slug rifled barrel or muzzleloader, is hard to beat IMO. :wink:

BTW, Rag: I love my "nuts"...That's even the reason I avoid certain churches/religions... :P Please NEVER refer to loss of One of God's greatest gifts... (Testosterone) EVER again, unless you're just trying to ErK me and then you probably read what will happen again...
(edit:like I stated on www.theopia.com "another similar will die!") :P :lol: 8)

I love you guys , (really...probably) I always have. :D
(My nephews 6 and 4 say that, just comes to mind) :lol:
Very interesting, everything they say, is from action cartoons...odd???8)
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:06 am

Ragnarok wrote:Try loading a "Magnum" airgun bullet into a CO2 rifle, and it'll probably get stuck or have a very low energy because of the wasted energy through friction and rifling of the bullet.


Tried this in a 12 ft/lb AA S410, standard bullets just got stuck half-way through the barrel, they needed to be turned down to exit.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:35 am

Not sure if I should buy the barrel or wait for something better.

There's a .303 barrel for $75 that's in better condition, thing is i've already got ~90 .303 projectiles, and if I bought the .243 barrel for $25 it'd cost me about $40 for 100 .243 projectiles. But i've also seen .303 barrels a lot cheaper, one went for $16 last week but I missed it. So I might wait for one of them. They come up fairly often from WW2 rifles, most are in good nick too.
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Unread postAuthor: THUNDERLORD » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:56 am

The .303 has an actual diameter of .311" which might be good for air/spud use of .308 diameter bullets. (many rifle calibers use .308" too)
Although the copper jacket will no doubt be tougher to go through rifling than even harder type lead.
There are molds for .308" as well as .311"(3o3).

.243 is .244".
On my drill bit chart, a size "C" bit is .2420" and a "D" is .2460".
An "N" bit is .3020" and a 5/16" is .3125"
The smaller sizes are good if you wanted a precision bullet mold because a reamer in a drill press, mill or lathe would give it better consistency.
(edit: few more bits for .308,.311 like 19/64th (.2969),"L","M" if reamer is used. drill bits tend to make oval scratchy holes...)
Or even maybe polish the mold holes larger with a dremel or hand drill and abrasive polish/grinding compound.

Although, If the projectile came out a few thousandth (or even .010) over it would be easy to press through something to shave a little off.

I'd go for a homemade mass production mold myself (with precision).
Haven't done much lead mold work though.
Seems more practical for both air/spud use projectiles and cost-wise.

At $75 for a surplus barrel, whole rifles used to go for that not long ago.

One disadvantage to firearm barrels is that combined with spud equipment one could run into legal snags which could become lengthy and costly, maybe painful to sort out. (so...careful storage is in order(?))
That's why I avoid them and prefer black powder muzzle loader stuff.
Definately never mount a silencer to one ever...Bad idea.

BTW, I found .50 BMG surplus barrels for 150-200$ USD online one time...
Started daydreaming of getting a manufacturer's liscense...(legally) (so no zip gun discussion)...It would be simple to build a solid block, and rather than break open, a simple hinge that swings the barrel open to one side (rather than forward, rather than a locking bolt).
Single shot . 50 BMG designs go for over $1500(++and+),
and Many use those barrels and look a little home-workshop crafted.

Many people are unaware, I read somewhere in USA it's not illegal to build a firearm as long as it's not full-auto or a shotgun with less than 18" barrel. And one's self-made gun cannot be sold or transfered without going through legality paperwork. (not too interested much myself but it was interesting, still I would double check that).

Oh, on the "magnum pellets", I wasn't stating they won't get stuck in co2 power, just that even co2 power would be viable for use in firearm barrels was all.

silly mood last night...Had to drop off my woman till next weekend..was already bad mood...I have GOT to get better work this week! :( 8)
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Unread postAuthor: cannon monkey » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:54 am

ramses wrote:
MrCrowley wrote:
cannon monkey wrote:didnt read all being smart a** here but any ways why not make a rifed barrel then cut off a few inchs and make that a mold so the amo already has the riffed marks wont slow down to much and will give nice spin on it?

I was thinking about that but I was wondering if the force would be to great for the projectile and it would simply jam, loose it's "rifle track" or break apart. Because if you pre-rifle the bullet, the bullet will have to follow the rifling path in the barrel and it initially might be too powerful and make the bullet go out of line or something.


I disagree. If the projectile can handle blackpowder in a muzzle loading firearm, it should have no problems in a hybrid. that said, ball ammo is loaded with a "patch" which grips the rifling.


im with him if i can handle blackpowder than it can take this
as long as the groves ( riffed) in the slug ( amo) are deep enough and the barrel forms to them well there should be no problem and to load line up the groves drop it down the front of the barrel it spin the other way as i reaches the bottom
if ur using pvc pipe for barrel then that would be what breaks on this part
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:40 pm

Getting the ammo rifled during the firing process is a waste of energy. Just use wadding that is pressed between the barrel and the projectile. You can make your projectile from hardened steel without damaging the rifling.
Different types of wadding or sabots will need to be tried out, many wont work very well, but there will be some others doing it just fine.
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