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Thoughts on real rifle barrels and hybrids

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Thoughts on real rifle barrels and hybrids

Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:27 am

I understand that it probably takes close to a thousand if not more PSI to be able to get a real bullet to be rifled by a real rifle barrel. So I was thinking;

a) What about if you used lead ammo (soft, low melting temp.)
b) Would the rifling cause significant drag (from trying to make it through the rifling) on a real bullet or lead casting projectile even if the projectile wasn't shot with enough force to rifle the projectile? i.e, the projectile makes it out of the barrel but wasn't shot with enough force to be effected by the rifling.

I've had little experience with guns and haven't read much of them aside from the basics that come with this hobby after 3 years so i'm not really sure on the required force for rifling and its effect on projectiles that are fired with insufficient force.

Just think it'd be cool to use a real rifle barrel for once. I'm guessing the threads are incompatable with anything found in the plumbing store but I can sort that out later.
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Unread postAuthor: CpTn_lAw » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:39 am

Or you could buy a rifle barrel, and use a lathe to thread it to whatever standard you want...
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:03 am

The problem would really be to find projectiles. My recomendation would be to use a .22cal projectile with .22cal pellets, or .177cal bore and pellets. Pellets are soft and have little contact area that needs to eb rifeled, none the less with would improve accuracy.
Really the perfect thing would be to find a supplyer or 1-2cm wide steel or aluminium tubes that have small bore holes in the middle 4.5 and 5mm would be the best.
These could then be rifeled using a little rig and lathe, or just with a rig and by hand, either would work.
I guess that would be your best bet.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:59 pm

john bunsenburner wrote:The problem would really be to find projectiles. My recomendation would be to use a .22cal projectile with .22cal pellets, or .177cal bore and pellets.


Normal skirted pellets are too weak for a hybrid, even a powerful air rifle can tear them apart. In fact most high end air rifles use "bullet" shaped projectiles, some 0.22s take lead bullets originally made for 0.22 rimfire, like Eley Magnums.
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:01 pm

Ok, thats good to know, what kind of pneumatic would tear a pellet apart?
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:05 pm

Normal rifles produce upwards of over 20,000psi per shot. I'm not sure if our hybrids would produce enough pressure to do what you would like, but I don't see where it would hurt to try.
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:17 pm

Well if my dream fulfills, some know it, ill not mention it too much though. Then yes a pressure of that magnitude will not only be achieved, but very likely, give it another 8 or so years, cause i would need to get that one sponsered(or I need my own income), and I doubt I will manage before collage. This is a big thing, and my challange for this Art, what i will do when i have done that I do not know, perhaps say I have finished, perhaps decide to top it(which would require another sponsor ship/ well paid job, as I know what I would do already, hehehe).

Wow i must of freaked people out and made them intrested, but yeah,
20 000 psi would be possible, and when someone tops larda, it will also be possible, anyone know what pressure the 200x got to?
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Re: Thoughts on real rifle barrels and hybrids

Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:22 pm

MrCrowley wrote:I understand that it probably takes close to a thousand if not more PSI to be able to get a real bullet to be rifled by a real rifle barrel. So I was thinking;

a) What about if you used lead ammo (soft, low melting temp.)
b) Would the rifling cause significant drag (from trying to make it through the rifling) on a real bullet or lead casting projectile even if the projectile wasn't shot with enough force to rifle the projectile? i.e, the projectile makes it out of the barrel but wasn't shot with enough force to be effected by the rifling.

I've had little experience with guns and haven't read much of them aside from the basics that come with this hobby after 3 years so i'm not really sure on the required force for rifling and its effect on projectiles that are fired with insufficient force.

Just think it'd be cool to use a real rifle barrel for once. I'm guessing the threads are incompatable with anything found in the plumbing store but I can sort that out later.



look into "gas check" ammunition.... basically it's premade sabots for a lot of common rounds....
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:32 pm

@john bunsenburner: The HyGaC20 (of which it seems only I bother to remember the name) will have generated peak pressures around 10,000-15,000 psi. Average pressure was about 3200 psi.
The record is still his ETG, which will be about 6400 psi average (yes, that means the ETG, for its barrel size, is twice the power of the HyGaC20).

Still very low for a rifle, which can easily hit average pressures of 20,000 psi or more (peak pressures are easily in excess of 50 ksi)
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:10 pm

Again, I plan to get something like a rifel power with my dream concept. It could go alot higher, it just means the material would have to be able to with stand it, and i would need proper machining facilities, and so on and so forth. But i will see and if I do then ill make sure SF will be posted, giv it a while though, and forget about it as i won't tell people(that don't know it already, go through my posts, you will find it with soem detective skills) who don't already know.
The next step up form it would be plain mad though, which means you are likely to get it from me. But first I still ow SF my first gun, and I gotta repay you for having to put up with me for close to a year.
Still remember you telling me to take it slow, to not jump in to the deep end of the pool, and getting all "fatherly" saying you might acctually ask me to be banned for my own safetly, hehe...

Im not high, none the less my posts are wierd, sorry.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:45 pm

john bunsenburner wrote:Still remember you telling me to take it slow, to not jump in to the deep end of the pool, and getting all "fatherly" saying you might actually ask me to be banned for my own safety, hehe...

Standard practice - don't let the person who doesn't know all the basics know to do the dangerous stuff.

It'd be like giving a chimpanzee being given a loaded machine gun - hilarious to watch on Youtube but not something you'd want to be responsible for... or be anywhere near for that matter. :tongue3:
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:50 pm

Well there's a barrel for $25 from a .243 rifle that i'm looking at, I can get hold of 100 .243 projectiles pretty cheap and easy or I could even try steel 6mm BB's, no?

IIRC, steel BB's are about 5.9-5.95mm (ones I have anyway) and a .243" barrel is about 6.1mm, so that doesn't seem too bad. I guess it's obly $25 ($15USD), so there's not much harm in trying.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:04 am

MrCrowley wrote:Well there's a barrel for $25 from a .243 rifle that i'm looking at, I can get hold of 100 .243 projectiles pretty cheap and easy or I could even try steel 6mm BB's, no?

IIRC, steel BB's are about 5.9-5.95mm (ones I have anyway) and a .243" barrel is about 6.1mm, so that doesn't seem too bad. I guess it's obly $25 ($15USD), so there's not much harm in trying.


Steel BBs + rifling = bad idea, you'll have a smoothbore in no time at all. Either that or a barrel in the shape of a decorative post-modern flower ;)

That is if they fit exactly, if they're too small to bite into the rifling then why bother at all?

You could try hammering the bullets through, see what sort of force it takes.

what kind of pneumatic would tear a pellet apart?


I've seen Career rifles shatter lesser pellets (you can tell because a paper target close to the muzzle looks like it's been hit by a fragmentation grenade :roll: ) or leave the pellet skirt in the barrel while shooting out the head.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:10 am

Ragnarok wrote: Average pressure was about 3200 psi.


Really? A 200x mix has a 3000 psi pre-ignition pressure, I know it was used much lower than that regularly but 3200 strikes me as being a bit low.
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:21 am

That's not the maximum pressure, it's the average pressure from ignition to equilibrium.
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