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Hybrid Ranting.....

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Hybrid Ranting.....

Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:29 pm

I know that this is a little off the wall, but it is something that I have wondered about ever since I discovered what a hybrid is and how it functions.

I first want to compare a hybrid launcher to its counterparts suggested in its name.

Compared to a combustion: In a combustion launcher, a fuel is put into the chamber which allows for a stoichiometric mixture with the atmospheric pressure within the chamber. To create a hybrid, additional stoichiometric mixtures are added to the chamber.

Compared to a pneumatic: Besides a valve, the only thing a hybrid has in common with a pneumatic launcher is the addition of compressed air. This compressed air serves only to provide the stoichiometric mixture to the fuel. It has nothing to do with actual pneumatic function. As far as the valve is concerned, it serves only the purpose of keeping the mixture within the chamber,which, again, has nothing in common with the function of a pneumatic launcher.

A hybrid is triggered just like a combustion, it is purged just like a combustion, it produces heat which generates pressure just like a combustion, in fact, it is nothing more than a combustion launcher on steroids.

Now, the word hybrid indicates that two things are mixed together, in this case, a pneumatic launcher and a combustion launcher. The problem with this is, however, is that a hybrid launcher is not a mixture of the two, but rather a just combustion launcher that someone figured out how to produce more power out of.

And this brings us to the rant: Why is it even called a hybrid? This term has been around for quite some time, and I highly doubt that it would ever change, but I wouldn't it make more sense to name this after a combustion rather than a mix of a pneumatic and combustion?
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Unread postAuthor: Dave_424 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:32 pm

It could be because it can be used as a combustion or a burst disk pneumatic.

Or it uses a combustable fuel (Such as in a combustion) and pressurised air (As in a pneumatic)

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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:01 pm

It could be because it can be used as a combustion or a burst disk pneumatic.
That is true, but who would do that when you could go beyond the reach of a basic combustion or pneumatic.

Or it uses a combustable fuel (Such as in a combustion) and pressurised air (As in a pneumatic)
BUT, pneumatics can be operated by other gas sources, like CO2 - a hybrid (and combustion) cannot). A pneumatic functions by controlling the valve - a hybrid (and combustion does not). A pneumatic does not require a meter - a hybrid (and a lot of combustions do).
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Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:24 pm

Here's a thought...A True hybrid in the sense you're refering to, could involve a high friction or high inertia projectile in the barrel ahead of a fuel of some sort in the dead space, and given the proper paremeters when the pneumatic portion of the gun is fired the introduction of air and the rapid compression of the dead space behind the projectile could be subject to diesel ignition....Similar to dieseling a springer, but on a larger(more dangerous) scale... That could be a true hybrid... :D
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:51 pm

I agree, hybrids have more in common with combustions then pneumatics.
However, I once tried to approach hybrids from the pneumatic side, having the combustion as the secondary effect.
You can find the topic here.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:30 pm

I have questioned wether or not my own hybrid cannons are legitimate for these reasons. I thought "well there isn't enough air pressure to really do anything, so is it what a hybrid is supposed to be like?"
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:47 pm

I agree, the word "hybrid" is not the best description...they are combustion cannons. I can imagine there was thoughts of combining a combustion and pneumatic cannons in some way and this name had been chosen possibly before real success had happened.

I would argue though that unless you're using O2 as you are Moon, you still need air tight seals, a source of compressed air, air fittings, etc. very much the same as you would any pneumatic. The difference obviously being that pressurization energy is directly used for propulsion in the pneumatic and for simply more access to O2 in the Hybrid.

I think terms like High Pressure, High Tension, Modified Fueled, Advanced Fueled, High Ratio Fueled, or some other creative term...Combustion, would have been more appropriate. However, we are more than likely stuck with the term hybrid unless a very significant effort is made to change it.
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Unread postAuthor: noname » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:42 pm

I'm sure this topic could easily go on for a couple pages of arguments. That being said, does calling it a hybrid really matter that much? Honestly, it's a simple easy word, unlike all of Starman's suggestions, which makes it easy to just talk about. More importantly, it's much more badass sounding ( :D ), in my opinion of course.
Basically it just boils down to whether we actually care enough to change it. I think hybrid is a good enough term, and it has been for years. If it's not 100% correct, big deal. Proper "spudgun nomenclature" isn't one of those topics that matters a huge amount in life.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:43 pm

starman wrote:However, we are more than likely stuck with the term hybrid unless a very significant effort is made to change it.


We could simply start acting as if though we have no idea what a "hybrid" is and start refereing to them as something else! Not only would it be funny, but given enough time it just might catch on. But yeah, it would take a while since everyone under the sun calls them hybrids.
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Unread postAuthor: CS » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:19 am

If I understand correctly the pneumatic pressure created by adding air increases the energy potential. The inert gases in an air mixture than contribute to propulsion in simple pneumatic terms. Please verify I could be simply mis-guided.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:01 am

pimpmann22 wrote:If I understand correctly the pneumatic pressure created by adding air increases the energy potential. The inert gases in an air mixture than contribute to propulsion in simple pneumatic terms. Please verify I could be simply mis-guided.


That could be, but (1) these increases would be minimal and (2) this was probably not thought of when the name was created.

@noname - I see it like that too, I just had to get this off my chest and was curious if I was the only one who thought this.
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:49 am

I think the real answer is that the name "Advanced Combustion" had already been taken.
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Unread postAuthor: niglch » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:56 am

Perhaps we should start calling hybrids the true "advanced combustions". Of course, spray and prays will have to get knocked down to "primitive combustions" or something.

I guess the valve is the main reason why hybrids are named the way they are. From that perspective, a good hybrid must have a valve that opens as the chamber reaches peak pressure. The actual combustion is just a very fast way of reaching high pressure (the temperature also helps).

However, I do agree that it is a lot more logical to refer to a hybrid as a type of combustion. Their main purpose is to simply allow for a lot of power output from a relatively small chamber.

Either way, the name stuck, so it will probably stay for better or for worse.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:59 am

Well, I vote to change it :D
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:33 am

pimpmann22 wrote:If I understand correctly the pneumatic pressure created by adding air increases the energy potential. The inert gases in an air mixture than contribute to propulsion in simple pneumatic terms. Please verify I could be simply mis-guided.


The advantage to a hybrid is when you add the air, it also adds oxygen, which can be used to burn extra fuel in the same space. Let's compare.

Normal combustion. 1 atmosphere air, 1 unit of fuel for proper mix.
2X combustion. 2 atmosphere air 2 units of fuel. Twice the fuel of combustion + 15 PSI of pneumatic. Slightly more than 2X the power.

Scale it on up and the power of both the high fuel and added pressure reach points of very high power.

This is not just a single shot of energy from a 1X combustion with a pneumatic air charge ready to be released. Its often the fuel air of a dozen launcher + Pneumatic in a small package so the combined combustion is faster than touching off a bunch of 1X combustion mixes due to the smaller volume, so the resulting burn time is way faster.

This tends to shred fans in the chamber and sometimes the chamber as shown in the contest. It's a whole lota boom going on. :shock:
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