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Community Project #1 - Handheld, High Mix, Hybrid

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:08 pm

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
jeepkahn wrote:Not trying to dissuade cartridges, but if you go cart style, how much time will have to be dedicated to charging/loading shells per round fired...

Yes, the fueling may be more complex, but end result would be time invested per shot would be much lower than with cartridges...


Fair point, my contention would be though that 5-10 cartridges would be "enough" :)

One thing, when we say "hand held", do we mean like a rifle or does that include shoulder fired?


I guess I forget that most people don't have the area and means to shot like I do, I normally shoot 100-200 rounds when I'm "playing"... Hence my idea of something that would be effecient to be fired 30 or 40 rounds in a session...
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:44 pm

hmm... I am not dismissing cartridges but they make more sense for solid propellants (which can't be discussed here)

lol just think about it - how many panitball guns use cartridges...?none, but there are combustion PB guns...

also
the firer only has to deal with the weight of one cartridge at a time - big advantage compared to the weight of an on-board fuelling system.


Not trying to dissuade cartridges, but if you go cart style, how much time will have to be dedicated to charging/loading shells per round fired


it doesn't seem fair.... first you say that fuelling system adds weight to a traditional launcher but to load cartridges you still need one... would you strap it to the gun to make things fairer??
:wink:

sorry I think that guidelines are not strict and specific enough...
so this was bound to happen...
I'll tell you what how it was -> someone sends guidelines for his 'dream gun'...
people see guidelines for a gun that more or less fits their 'dream gun'...

since the guidelines are not specific enough they think they can use the project and the community to build a gun they want....


I don't really know why you insisted on only one design and one prototype....
let them build different designs (if they can meet the guidelines there is nothing you can do really)

that's why I insisted on rewriting them :P [demonic laughter] muhahahaha [/demonic laughter]
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:04 pm

sorry I think that guidelines are not strict and specific enough...
so this was bound to happen...
I'll tell you what how it was -> someone sends guidelines for his 'dream gun'...
people see guidelines for a gun that more or less fits their 'dream gun'...

since the guidelines are not specific enough they think they can use the project and the community to build a gun they want....

I don't really know why you insisted on only one design and one prototype....
let them build different designs (if they can meet the guidelines there is nothing you can do really)

that's why I insisted on rewriting them Razz [demonic laughter] muhahahaha [/demonic laughter]


Then why didn't you volunteer to make any revisions? I put the five choices I had on a poll, but no one opted to revise any of them. The voting lasted for three days, and, still, no one opted for any form of revision. The only form of revision I received was a recommendation that I did agree with and follow.

As I have said before, and I will say again - Community Project is for the community. If the community decides to build one then so be it. If the community decides to build several different ones, then so be it. Either way will mean that this was successful in generating new thoughts and ideas.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: If you do not wish to participate in this build, then don't. Negative comments can be left off this thread (send them to me or a mod privately and they can be addressed and handled without the need for locking the thread against those who DO wish to participate).

Thank you for this cooperation.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:08 pm

Since this is a community project, if it is decided to use cartridges, that is fine. If a high rate hybrid is desired, that is also possible. Someone with better drafting skills than my could work with some of my sketches on how to deliver metered propane and air much like the contest winner, but using a method to deliver under pressure for the hybrid. Either hand pumped in a self contained or fed off an air line is possible.

There have been several designs for a disk less hybrid using a valve that opens on a sudden pressure rise.

So the questions are, cartridge or not? Burst disk or valve for diskless? On board fuel and air, or compressor or air tank tether.

For very high rate of fire, hand pumps won't quite make it for higher mix hybrids unless the chamber is very small. Low mix such as 2X would make a rapid fire possible with a single open shut operation loading a projectile and purge/vent fill stroke on the fuel and air pumps.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:15 pm

POLAND_SPUD wrote:lol just think about it - how many paintball guns use cartridges...?none


Think again ;) - granted, no combustion involved, but dude! *clatter clatter* :D

but there are combustion PB guns...


That are practically indistinguishable in performance and function from normal paintball ones :)

it doesn't seem fair.... first you say that fuelling system adds weight to a traditional launcher but to load cartridges you still need one... would you strap it to the gun to make things fairer?


Granted, the fuelling system doesn't have to be on-board with a non-cartridge gun either.

sorry I think that guidelines are not strict and specific enough...


I'll agree there, calibre and overall size should be included in the specifications, as well as expected ft/lbs.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:33 pm

If the community decides to build one then so be it. If the community decides to build several different ones, then so be it
uhmm actually I was addressing the community not you personally... English uses the same form ('you') for both singular and plural... but yeah I should have predicted that it might be misunderstood

sorry if you found that offensive or something.. no need to overreact..

Then why didn't you volunteer to make any revisions?

but earlier
Also, please note any changes that may be needed.

If there is a disagreement with how the layout of any of the ideas should be, post them here and they will be noted.

Anyway, I didn't read all of these replies, but I did read the one or two or three posts by Ragnarok concerning "what it's got to do, rather than how we have to do it." I agree 100%

uhmm... I did mention them in the thread... I was not imposing my ideas on others (this would have happened if I sent a PM and you changed the guidelines) but instead I posted them hoping that you'd read them

and I am not against the project... try not to take things personally... there is no need to do so

@JSR
That are practically indistinguishable in performance and function from normal paintball ones
well yeah but this doesn't prove your point here...
if you could build a cartridge combustion gun that could outperform a traditional one then I'd say that we could assume that it makes sense...

of course first you'd have to design and build one just to prove that you're right... so what are you waiting for?? :wink:
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Last edited by POLAND_SPUD on Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:53 pm

Downsides of cartridges
Problem with cartridges is that they all need to hold 9 bar, and small leaks will pose a problem if you do not fire the cartridges immediately.
On top of that I do not feel like machining the same item over and over again.

Upgrading a normal hybrid
With two persons, you can reload a normal hybrid within 15 seconds.
Now add manometric metering, using regulators. Push one button, propane enters chamber, push another button, air enters chamber.
Make it a piston hybrid so that you won't have to reload the burst disk and make a simple bolt action reload

Open bolt, load ammo, close bolt, open air and fuel ball valves for a sec, DONE. Bet'cha can do that in 5 seconds.
Heck, make the air and fueling system automatic and add magazine for the ammo, you could fire it every second!

Cartridges are suitable for faster that that, and we are already way faster then the goal this way.

Onboard fueling system makes it heavy.
-So? Go to the gym!
-Wouldn't it also help dealing with recoil? Same momentum, but "Soft recoil vs sharp recoil"

Further dealing with recoil
Mount gun on sliding rail, which fits on stock or handles, add spring or other dampening.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:03 pm

psycix wrote:Now add manometric metering, using regulators. Push one button, propane enters chamber, push another button, air enters chamber.
Make it a piston hybrid so that you won't have to reload the burst disk and make a simple bolt action reload


Add shotgun style foregrip which when cocked somehow opens the regulated valves to feed the chamber (no need to fend if you're feeding air+fuel, right?) while also somehow loading the projectile... you might just have me on board :P :D

How about an over/under break barrel which opens the valves when broken so you fill the chamber while you're loading the projectiles. dual triggers and that's 2 shots before you have to reload ;)

Can we still hire someone to stand in the background and throw a cartridge to the floor after every shot :D
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Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:12 pm

Yes Jack, we'll throw brass on the floor just for you... :D
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:14 pm

psycix wrote:Make it a piston hybrid so that you won't have to reload the burst disk and make a simple bolt action reload


Agreed, but with a mod to the metering;
Now add mass flow metering, using regulators and cycle timer. Open the auto loader and metered propane and air enters the chamber as a mix purging in the process, then metering flows again when closed to bring up the desired mix. Power is dial adjustable as desired on the fly with a perfect mix every shot.

I can show you how to do it. :D

@ Jeep;
Yes Jack, we'll throw brass on the floor just for you...


It can be built into the auto loader. Dual hopper. Pull back chucks a shell, forward chucks in a projectile. Don't make it difficult requiring two people to operate it.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:50 pm

After 3 pages of discussion about cartridges I decide to join the discussion...
After one post:
you might just have me on board
Agreed
Hehehe. :D


Well, that's one step closer. Let's see which discussion grows from here.
Personally I vote against electronic fueling systems and double barrels.
With a good mechanism you will be able to reload in a pump-action, fast enough for not needing double barrels. Breakbarrel is an option but is less suitable to get ammo out of a mag.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:59 pm

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
but there are combustion PB guns...

That are practically indistinguishable in performance and function from normal paintball ones

As far as I know, combustion PB guns are still only as far as pump action - but feel free to correct me on that one.

How about an over/under break barrel which opens the valves when broken so you fill the chamber while you're loading the projectiles. dual triggers and that's 2 shots before you have to reload

I think a 3" bore is probably too large to make an over/under barrel arrangement possible.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:04 pm

There was only one combustion paintball marker made. It was made by Tippmann (called the C3), it was pump action only, and it was a big flop.

As far as this project is concerned, it appears that cartridges are going to be sticking around for it. A magazine fed system may work, but is completely unnecessary. I'd say go with a break barrel deal with the cartridges. Something like Goat's gun would be ideal for this configuration.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:17 pm

Ragnarok wrote:I think a 3" bore is probably too large to make an over/under barrel arrangement possible.


If we're going for a bore that big (and still haven't written off cartridges :roll: :D ) a challenge would be replicating the semi-automatic breech as on the legendary '88:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqQbJF3e5-8&feature=related[/youtube]

Cartridge inserted, breech closed manually, launcher fires and recoils (assuming it's mounted on a rail on the stock that allows it to do so), on the return stroke breech is knocked open, letting the spent cartridge out, and remains open waiting for the next one to be loaded.

It's a stretch, I know, but we're brainstorming right :) and there's no doubt this would look wicked on a smaller scale on a shoulder fired launcher, albeit to the peril of whoever is standing directly behind :P
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:46 pm

If the cartridges are to stick around, why not make them fire like real cartridges? Instead of lining up wires and spark gaps and all that stuff in each one, why not use a bullet primer with a firing pin to set it off.

For that matter, why can't this be done outside of a cartridge design?
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