Login    Register
User Information
Username:
Password:
We are a free and open
community, all are welcome.
Click here to Register
Sponsored
Who is online

In total there are 61 users online :: 4 registered, 0 hidden and 57 guests


Most users ever online was 155 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:40 am

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot] based on users active over the past 5 minutes

The Team
Administrators
Global Moderators
global_moderators.png CS

hybrid cartridge protoype without burst disk

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
Sponsored 
  • Author
    Message

Unread postAuthor: psycix » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:25 pm

Sweet. I hope you didn't forget to roughen the pipe on the inside?

While it's curing you might look into finding new batteries for you camera. The overview picture is somewhat out of focus, did you turn on macro mode? :wink:
  • 0

Till the day I'm dieing, I'll keep them spuddies flying, 'cause I can!

Spudfiles steam group, join!
User avatar
psycix
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:12 am
Location: The Netherlands
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:38 pm

psycix wrote:Sweet. I hope you didn't forget to roughen the pipe on the inside?


I only did thatonce :P

While it's curing you might look into finding new batteries for you camera. The overview picture is somewhat out of focus, did you turn on macro mode? :wink:


Macro mode was on, but I only saw the photo on the PC after I had sealed everything up. Here, have a properly focused picture of the cartridge curing. Note the canted schrader which still doesn't protrude from the body diameter to facilitate potential future magazine storage ;)
  • 0

Attachments
DSCF4408.JPG
DSCF4408.JPG (19.48 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: psycix » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:20 pm

Wouldn't it be expensive to have 10 to 100 shrader valves in your cartridges?
You might need to look into something else... and I just got a great idea:
Push the BB onto the sealing face with a spring, and pressurize the cartridge from the barrel port, so that it acts as a check valve!

Ammo, burst disk AND filling valve in one!
  • 0

Till the day I'm dieing, I'll keep them spuddies flying, 'cause I can!

Spudfiles steam group, join!
User avatar
psycix
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:12 am
Location: The Netherlands
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:50 pm

psycix wrote:Wouldn't it be expensive to have 10 to 100 shrader valves in your cartridges?


Not at all ;)


You might need to look into something else... and I just got a great idea:
Push the BB onto the sealing face with a spring, and pressurize the cartridge from the barrel port, so that it acts as a check valve!

Ammo, burst disk AND filling valve in one!


SPG beat you to it;)

Let's see how this goes and move from there.

edit: No go :( the spark is arcing externally from the schrader threads to the cartridge body, which doesn't seem to make sense because it's a shotrer distance from the edge of the schrader internally to the cartridge wall...
  • 0

User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: spudamine » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:49 am

any chance your epoxy ran down the inside of the tube, insulating it? I'm sure the epoxy king wouldn't have made such a beginner's epoxy mistake :lol:
How do you get all that rubber crap off of your schraders, it's always looked like a bit of a pain to me. I would go further than just roughing the inner surface of the tube and cut a shallow thread in it, or even drill holes like Daccel did for extra grip for the epoxy.
  • 0

User avatar
spudamine
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:47 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:59 am

spudamine wrote:any chance your epoxy ran down the inside of the tube, insulating it?


No, I was aware this might happen so I poured it dropwise down the side where the schrader was farthest from the cartridge wall so I'm sure that's not the issue.

How do you get all that rubber crap off of your schraders, it's always looked like a bit of a pain to me.


Three words, drill, vice, file ;)

I would go further than just roughing the inner surface of the tube and cut a shallow thread in it, or even drill holes like Daccel did for extra grip for the epoxy.


I use a file to cut grooves in it so it's pretty secure. But yes, a couple of holes drilled in would be a good idea which I have also used in the past.

I'm going to try and make another one tonight, I have some 0.55" steel tubing that should do nicely (unless I liberate some stainless offcuts from the maintenance department :D) so keep watching this space :)

edit: version 2 made and curing, I checked for spark beforehand and it seems consistent :) actual internal volume is only 1.8mL so I'm going to have to be very careful with metering, even at 10x it will be just 0.7mL but with a 1mL syringe it shouldn't be an issue.

update 25/10/2009:

Can't get it to ignite :( I've taken it to 5x, reasonably confident of my metering and I definitely have spark. Bollocks.
  • 0

Attachments
hybridcartsealv2.JPG
Cartridge v2 curing with a piezo ignitor for scale, the scratched arrow markings indicate the effective internal volume.
User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: theBOOM » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:46 am

How did the v.2 prototype perform?
  • 0

User avatar
theBOOM
Major
Major
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX
Reputation: 0

Sponsored

Sponsor
 


Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:42 am

In short, it didn't. I definitely have spark and the BB-seal arrangement is holding pressure, I've tried to up to 5x but no ignition in apparent. To be honest I've chickened out of trying it at high mixes, my conclusion is that I've gone a little too small with the volume to allow for effective syringe metering.

I might try a bigger version but for now I'm thinking aboutpneumatic cartridges again.
  • 0

User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:55 am

I agree that this is getting on the small side with syringe metering. I had problems at this scale. How about a mix metered with a venturi? There was one using a shock pump a while back that worked fine.
  • 0

PimpAssasinG wrote:no im strong but you are a fat gay mother sucker that gets raped by black man for fun
User avatar
inonickname
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:27 am
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: psycix » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:37 am

What about metering fuel in a "bulk tank" (which can still be quite small) and filling from that? On this scale it can't really "go nuclear" anyway.

Oh, and after shooting, can you push a new BB through the seal? (Without the seal coming loose)
  • 0

Till the day I'm dieing, I'll keep them spuddies flying, 'cause I can!

Spudfiles steam group, join!
User avatar
psycix
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:12 am
Location: The Netherlands
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:43 am

psycix wrote:What about metering fuel in a "bulk tank" (which can still be quite small) and filling from that? On this scale it can't really "go nuclear" anyway.


That might be an idea, but I'd still prefer an individually metered cartridge.

Oh, and after shooting, can you push a new BB through the seal? (Without the seal coming loose)


Depending how far I push the BB in, just by pumping air it will pop out between 50-400 psi, the seal stays put. If you look at the way it's cast, the thing can't really pop out forwards or backwards.
  • 0

User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: zomgwtfbbq » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:12 am

jsr,

I think the idea of a hybrid cartridge without burst disc is brilliant, and even though you are putting this project on the shelf, I'm still going to give it a shot.

Have you considered using a presta valve instead of a schrader valve? This could solve the unwanted arcing since it is smaller in diameter. Also, it might improve the volume of the cartridge since it is thinner (albeit longer).

Could I know what you used to seal your bb? And also did you just epoxy the seal onto the metal cartridge casing?

Have you considered using a more powerful ignition source other than a piezo? - Since you said the mixture wouldn't ignite.

I noticed you said "pour epoxy". Do you mean your epoxy is in liquid form? Because mine is mold-able, and I was wondering if your liquid epoxy is stronger than the conventional mold-able epoxy. Anyway, what epoxy would you recommend?
  • 0

Attachments
25730_361187135263_529985263_4166377_2249320_n.jpg
Schrader versus Presta
25730_361187135263_529985263_4166377_2249320_n.jpg (38.2 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

zomgwtfbbq
Private First Class
Private First Class
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:59 am
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:30 am

zomgwtfbbq wrote:Have you considered using a presta valve instead of a schrader valve? This could solve the unwanted arcing since it is smaller in diameter. Also, it might improve the volume of the cartridge since it is thinner (albeit longer).


Sounds like a good option, I've never used presta's though. might be worth investigating as pilot valves though, I think hotwired had suggested them around the time I made the first pengun. Don't know how they handle high pressure either.

Could I know what you used to seal your bb?


3mm internal diameter silicon tubing, something like this.

And also did you just epoxy the seal onto the metal cartridge casing?


Yes, but if you look at the diagram you can see I slipped it over a length of barrel tubing to keep it locked in.

Have you considered using a more powerful ignition source other than a piezo? - Since you said the mixture wouldn't ignite.


Piezos are all I have but a stronger ignition might be the answer, though I'm more inclined to think it was poor mixing and I had good spark.

I noticed you said "pour epoxy". Do you mean your epoxy is in liquid form? Because mine is mold-able, and I was wondering if your liquid epoxy is stronger than the conventional mold-able epoxy. Anyway, what epoxy would you recommend?


The epoxy I use is liquid, something likethis. You can get a gallon for 50 bucks, it might sound like a lot to spend on adhesive but you use so little per project that it will last you a long time. Since it tends to flow throughout the whole of the casting it's stronger than putty.
  • 0

User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

Unread postAuthor: zomgwtfbbq » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:33 am

Sounds like a good option, I've never used presta's though. might be worth investigating as pilot valves though, I think hotwired had suggested them around the time I made the first pengun. Don't know how they handle high pressure either.


Presta valves are made to handle higher pressures than schrader's, or at least that was what the bicycle shop guy told me.

The epoxy I use is liquid, something like this. You can get a gallon for 50 bucks, it might sound like a lot to spend on adhesive but you use so little per project that it will last you a long time. Since it tends to flow throughout the whole of the casting it's stronger than putty.


How did you pour the epoxy into the cartridge casing without the epoxy sticking to your table since the bottom of the cartridge is hollow? Did you also inject the epoxy in with a syringe for more precise work?
  • 0


zomgwtfbbq
Private First Class
Private First Class
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:59 am
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:42 am

zomgwtfbbq wrote:How did you pour the epoxy into the cartridge casing without the epoxy sticking to your table since the bottom of the cartridge is hollow? Did you also inject the epoxy in with a syringe for more precise work?


It's all explained here. I do occasionally use syringes with finer jobs.

It is worth noting however that on this scale even with 800 psi+ pressures I'm comfortable using Araldite only:

Image
  • 0

User avatar
jackssmirkingrevenge
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 24225
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm
Country: Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Reputation: 66

PreviousNext

Return to Hybrid Cannon Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot]

Reputation System ©'