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Chilled Air Induction.

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: chaos » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:06 am

Bubba05 wrote:Yeah he want chilled air intake? So if you hook up an oxygen cylender to his cannon and turned the tap on the gas escaping from the cylender would be cold? Heat is only generated when the compression is taking place once its charged and settled its slighty warmer than room tempreture.

Yeah water intercoolers mate as i said they add over 100kg to the weight of the car. They wont tell you that on the sight coz there trying to sell you this set up witch is very bulky, heavy and needs constant maintanace to keep efficent. and not to mention a second radiator needs to be installed. with out even reading the artical you posted i mentioned and ice box witch i told you was usless.

They need to get there facts strait too! Superchargers BLOW compressed air into the motor via intake manafold. Turbo SUCKS compressed air from the motor via the exaust manafold.


Bubba


mate turbos and superchargers compress air into the engine but the turbo aswel as well as compressing intake air, sucks spent exhaust gases out of an engine and push them out of the exhaust quicker.

and seriously if they are more efficient than air/air than the extra weight >30kg will not be a problem.

all Rna wants to do is chill an airline going to his hybrid,

conclusion: it will have an effect on the power of the cannon bringing more O2 molecules into the chamber therefore increasing the power slightly.
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Unread postAuthor: boilingleadbath » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:29 pm

Oh, come on guys - gaseq has a temperature input option.
This could have been answered by anyone with a couple minutes of work.

Anyways:
300K initial (27*C; hot day): 9.28 atm
260K initial (-13*C; very salty ice bath): 10.66 atm

It helps... but doesn't seem to be worth the effort - at least at this point, you might as well just up the mix a bit.

Now, if you cool it using dry ice (195K), you get about 14 atm with propane-air... but you probably can't use propane at that temperature.
**************

Wait a moment... turbo-chargers are powered by the exaust gasses, and indeed increase the backpressure.

...if memory serves, they do the exact same thing as a supercharger: increase the pressure the piston is filled to.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Hence the saying id rather be BLOWN than SUCKED.

They force air into the motor.
"Proud owner of a 308 with a powerdine supercharger running 8psi"

Bubba
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:13 pm

I thought hotter air allows flame front speed to increase more rapidly.
?
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Unread postAuthor: boilingleadbath » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:02 pm

Indeed it does, _Fnord.
So the question becomes: would cooling the air increase or decrease the projectile energy?

Personally, I really like this quip I came up with:
"There are no oversized chambers, only insufficient ignitions."

Likewise, the slow combustion rate can be counteracted by adding more sparks - and indeed, could be viewed as a safety feature.
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Unread postAuthor: rna_duelers » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:14 am

Ohk I have had my question answered,and it doesn't really seem worth the effort.

Both turbo chargers and superchargers do the same thing,compress air and force it into the engine.The intercooler either being Air to Air,Air to Water or Dry ice cool the air because it is hot from being compressed,the job of an intercooler is to cool the air so the engine can run more timing and reduce the risk of detonation or "pinging",detonation is caused by hot air being taken into the engine which can prematurerly cause the fuel to ignite while the piston is still moving upwards towards the sparkplug and the pressure released is pushing down on your piston while it is still trying to finish its bore stroke in which case your engine becomes giant paper weight.Using an intercooler actually reduces the intake pressure because of the larger area for the piping,fins and air plates causing slight expansion form the pressure and a drop in intake pressure.Without it an intercooler your engine is F#cked unless you run low boost.
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:34 am

rna_duelers wrote:Ohk I have had my question answered,and it doesn't really seem worth the effort.

Both turbo chargers and superchargers do the same thing,compress air and force it into the engine.The intercooler either being Air to Air,Air to Water or Dry ice cool the air because it is hot from being compressed,the job of an intercooler is to cool the air so the engine can run more timing and reduce the risk of detonation or "pinging",detonation is caused by hot air being taken into the engine which can prematurerly cause the fuel to ignite while the piston is still moving upwards towards the sparkplug and the pressure released is pushing down on your piston while it is still trying to finish its bore stroke in which case your engine becomes giant paper weight.Using an intercooler actually reduces the intake pressure because of the larger area for the piping,fins and air plates causing slight expansion form the pressure and a drop in intake pressure.Without it an intercooler your engine is F#cked unless you run low boost.


The detonation your refering to is caused by to lean of a air fuel mixture, not hot air. If it was caused by hot air no engine would last long, raise your hood after a hour of standered driveing, feel that rush of hot air??? I can tell you for sure the inerds of the engine are way hotter! Valve faces opperate cherry red under normal driveing conditions.

The opperating differance between turbochargers and superchargers.


Turbocharger: Reuse burnt gasses and can only opperate to engine preformance, if your engine has a miss, so does your turbocharger.

Supercharger: Uses fresh air and fuel mixture to pressureize the entire intake chamber at a constent static pressure, as long as the engine runs, it maintains a static pressure.

As far as ignition timeing goes all engines fire before top dead center. If it didn't the ignition timing would never keep up with piston to valve timing. I have my van set at 12 degress before top dead center, seems to run it's best at 12 degress before TDC. Pinging comes from the valve train, the noise is realy being herd in the eshaust pipes. They act as a megaphone for the cylinder head.

So after all the off topic stuff about cars and thier intake systems, did we realy figure out if air gets colder or hotter after being compressed???

Well...i think we will have to maintain with our own opinions on that, i'm not buying all the math some of you try useing to figure out what a simple thermometer can tell me.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:22 pm

rna!! Turbo's dont need intercoolers to operate but it dose help! intercoolers only assist in the compression of air while its running through the plumming to the intake wilste being cooled.

Intercollers only boot performance by about 15 to 20 % so for what you spend on them and the added weight on your car theres not much bang for buck. also it dose not make your motor run more efficently! the use more fuel than a natraly asperated motor. Le Manns 1978 Porche turbo VS Jaguar V12. Jags won becouse they where getting better fuel consumption than the Porche that had to stop to refuel once ever ten laps on average were the Jag stoped one in 16.

To cool your intake line mate why dont you just run it through a ice bath or hook up your own type of intercooler! that would be cool the first intercooled cannon!

Bubba
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:23 pm

Bubba05 wrote:rna!! Turbo's dont need intercoolers to operate but it dose help! intercoolers only assist in the compression of air while its running through the plumming to the intake wilste being cooled.

Intercollers only boot performance by about 15 to 20 % so for what you spend on them and the added weight on your car theres not much bang for buck. also it dose not make your motor run more efficently! the use more fuel than a natraly asperated motor. Le Manns 1978 Porche turbo VS Jaguar V12. Jags won becouse they where getting better fuel consumption than the Porche that had to stop to refuel once ever ten laps on average were the Jag stoped one in 16.

To cool your intake line mate why dont you just run it through a ice bath or hook up your own type of intercooler! that would be cool the first intercooled cannon!
Bubba


Yea that does sound neet, probly wind up being just for show. How much of a differance do you think colder air will realy make?
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:20 pm

Well colder air on a car motor has great power gains so on a hybrid cannon it should bring the same results? in theroy

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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:44 pm

How much of a differance do you think colder air will realy make?


Thats simple, Mark has already provided us with the formula used to calculate the volume of a mole of gas at any given temperature.

V=0.0821*T

At room temperature, one mole of any gas occupies 24 liters of volume. Suppose we were to cool it to 0*C.

V=0.0821*272
V=22.33L

The chamber will be able to contain ~7% more gas than the room temperature chamber, which equates to a 7% increase in chamber energy.

Alternatively, propane liquefies at ~-40*C, so it is safe to say that we could cool the gases to say, -35*C. In this case...

V=0.0821*237
V=19.46

...we would see a gain of ~19% in chamber energy.
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Unread postAuthor: integral » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:11 pm

The biggest error on this thread is that some people are suggesting that by compressing gas, it reduces the system's temperature. I feel obliged to clear up that this comment is pure ficiton.

Some searching around with google for collision theory will justify that in fact, the opposite occurs. When the system is compressed, there is less volume for the gas particles to occupy and therefore they bump into each other more often, giving off energy (heat).

Bubba you cannont compare what rna is suggesting with a turbocharged or supercharged car. These systems need a intercooler to lower the temperature of the compressed gas for 2 main reasons: higher air/fuel ratio and to prevent popping. So yes... it may seem that when the turbo compresses the air, it gets cooler, but only via the intercooler.

I totally agree with pete on this one... the effects that you would experience rna would be totally marginal on the smaller scale, but if you were to up scale this project, then yes you might notice performance improvements, just basically because you would have more air inside the combustion chamber. But my question is, would the benefits be comparable to just pumping in more air via a compressor?
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Unread postAuthor: rna_duelers » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:05 am

I plan to use it in a hybrid at say ohh 3X but I was just wondering what the outcome would be colder air due to more oxygen molecules being present,plus I haven't seen it done on a cannons before and it's good to be unique.

Bubba05-If you look in my post I stated forced induction be it turbocharged or supercharged does not need an intercooler to run,but lower boost pressures are needed due to the air induction temperature.

Q.One simple question...If an intercoolers job is to only help the compressed air get to the intake why do they used sealed units with dry ice in drag racing?in both Turbo and Supercharged engines.

A.To cool the hot intake air,replacing air flowing over the intercooler with dry ice to cool it.

Something else to note,when a liquid evaporates what does it do?It cools much like how our sweat cools our bodies.In modern cars,such as the Subaru WRX STI and Mitsubishi Evo's they have water jets to spray on the intercoolers which evaporates and causes the intercooler to cool the compressed air more efficiently.


Something else just popped into my head...Lets disect the word intercooler.The word cooler is clearly present and also a spin off of a word inter or internal.Now as the name and the seperate words imply there is an inner cooler with a job of coolingthe air in the system.Now if cooling the air wasn't it's job then why would it be called an intercooler and not an intercompressor?Or something similar to the name.An intercoolers job is to coolthe air,and also some slight air turbulance is possitive to get a better air/fuel mix as a bi-product.
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Re: Chilled Air Induction.

Unread postAuthor: TwitchTheAussie » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:42 am

rna_duelers wrote: something like having air lines running through and ice bath to cool the air much like used on turbo charged cars.


OK now Im thinking bout turbo charging a cannon instead of a lawn mower lol. Anyway yeah your on to something there man. Its called forced induction which all hybrids and pneumatics use. Basically get some liquid nitrogen into some copper pipes to surround your air line.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:03 pm

Yes i know about the water sprayers on intercoolers. Thats been around for a while now, I didnt say that the intercooler compresses gas i said it helps.
Now its a known fact that in a supercharger you have to spray metho or glycol on the intake as when the air gets moving it can freeze up the intake butterflys.
And i think im going to stop as i have an inability to explain what i mean through a key bord sorry!
Ok putting a cold air intake on your cannon will increase the performane how you do this is up to you.

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