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Chilled Air Induction.

Post questions and info about hybrid (compressed gas with fuel) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about fuels, ratios, ignition systems, build types, safety, and anything else relevant.
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Chilled Air Induction.

Unread postAuthor: rna_duelers » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:33 am

When air is compressed it heats up.When the air is heated up there are less oxygen molecules present in a certain area,so cooling the air going into the combustion chamber with the fuel would add more molecules of oxygen.Correct?

So if one were to cool the gas that is going to be used in a hybrid with say something like having air lines running through and ice bath to cool the air much like used on turbo charged cars.Would there be noticeable power increase in say pressure produced at different atmospheres such as 2x 3x 4x etc.
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Unread postAuthor: chaos » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:56 am

It would substantially increase the performance in comparison to regular room temp air of Australia.
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:58 am

Actually, I believe all it would do is allow slightly more oxygen in the mixture, which would in turn allow slightly more fuel (propane?) to be used also, effectively allowing a slightly higher mix.

The effect would be negligible at low mixtures, I think, and would require a very very strong chamber to contain a high enough mixture to make it worth while. Having said that, under the right circumstances, it could be substantial.

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Unread postAuthor: rna_duelers » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:06 am

Well I have a Empty Oxygen tank to my disposal,rated to 4000psi with a 11000psi burst rating so im sure it can handle the increase of pressure,but that being said it's only as strong as its weakest link.

Now to try and figure out the ratio of how much more fuel is needed to be added at 5*C...Hmmmm is there a BLB present?
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:46 am

Well, it's simple, (even though I'm not BLB).

At 313 K, (room temperature), there is a mole of any gas present in every 25.7 liters.

At 278 K, (5*C), there is a mole of any gas present in every 22.8 liters.

So, for a certain volume, (a chamber), at a lower temperature there will be more oxygen molecules.

To solve for molar volume at a specific (absolute. Kelvin) temperature, the formula is V = .0821 * T

Divide your chamber volume, (in liters), by the value obtained to solve for the moles of air in your chamber. Multiply this by .21 to get the moles of oxygen in your chamber, and use this to solve for how much propane you need.
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Re: Chilled Air Induction.

Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:58 am

rna_duelers wrote:When air is compressed it heats up.When the air is heated up there are less oxygen molecules present in a certain area,so cooling the air going into the combustion chamber with the fuel would add more molecules of oxygen.Correct?


Nope, when air is compressed it gets colder. On a 50 degree day F, i can turn on my aircompressor let it fill, then open the drain pitcock on the bottom and it blows out ice chunks. Air defiantly gets colder after being compressed.
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:53 am

JRRDW, although I don't like to disagree, air, when compressed, heats up.

When it decreses in pressure, it cools down. As you released air from the drain-cock, the pressure dropped and the air cooled.

The equation for this is P<sub>1</sub>T<sub>2</sub>=P<sub>2</sub>T<sub>1</sub>. This is Gay-Lussac's law, it is simply a direct proportion of temperature vs. pressure.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:56 am

Im with jrrdw on this one rna. when gass is compressed it gets colder. and the system used on turbo cars is a inter cooler witch relies on the cold air passing over a radiatior type design that copresses the air in its gallerys and force feeds it into the intake! so in practice if you hooked up a charged oxygen bottle to your propain injection you should get the cold air you need.
I know what you doing and it incresses power in cars by up to 30% so you could expect the same sorta results with your cannon.

Bubba
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Unread postAuthor: chaos » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:15 am

well sorry to say jrrdw and bubba, but i agree with Mark. think about it on a turbocharged/supercharged car they compress the air, right? so it warms up it is then passed through either an air to air inter cooler or an air to water one(more efficient).

if you would like to test this theory, get a bike pump and pump it really hard for about a minute, then feel the bike pump cylinder it will be warm.

another way to explain is by propane/lpg: compressed inside a cylinder it is at room temp, if you open the valve the escaping gas will decrease in pressure and it will be cold (very cold eg freeze your finger cold :shock: )

edit: soz i forgot propane/lpg isn't air but the same theory applies.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:33 am

Superchargers compress the air befor it blowes into the intake where a turbo suck the exaughst out of the exauste manifold.
No such thing as an air to water intercooler dude if that where the case there would be over 100kg extra weight in the frount of the car? what performance increase would that bring with added weight.
They are air to air only. your thinking of ice boxes that aret that real efficent as they only last about five minets under the hood of a car.

Chaos?? mate?? I love your work mate but you dropped it on this one dude. the heat generated by a bike pump is form the plunger inside the pump cylinder causing friction. have a look at any compressed gas mate when it comes out its ice cold from being compressed. LPG cylenders and my fav and now remember people im a nurse and im around them every day. the good old oxygen cylender if you look close when the gas comes out of the cylender its cold.

Sorry boys life experiance rocks!!!!!!!!!!!

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Unread postAuthor: chaos » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:50 am

Bubba05 wrote:Superchargers compress the air befor it blowes into the intake where a turbo suck the exaughst out of the exauste manifold.
No such thing as an air to water intercooler dude if that where the case there would be over 100kg extra weight in the frount of the car? what performance increase would that bring with added weight.
They are air to air only. your thinking of ice boxes that aret that real efficent as they only last about five minets under the hood of a car.

Chaos?? mate?? I love your work mate but you dropped it on this one dude. the heat generated by a bike pump is form the plunger inside the pump cylinder causing friction. have a look at any compressed gas mate when it comes out its ice cold from being compressed. LPG cylenders and my fav and now remember people im a nurse and im around them every day. the good old oxygen cylender if you look close when the gas comes out of the cylender its cold.

Sorry boys life experiance rocks!!!!!!!!!!!

Bubba


your life has cheated you a little bit mate sorry to say but science wins this one

where to start...

compressed air coming out is cold: it is decompressing>> not compressing THERMAL EXPANSION! WIKI it please


seriously if you have done a level one chemistry or physics it surly would help explain a little bit. but the fact is compressing air generates heat.

but srsly wtf Air To water inter coolers> http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/intercooler.htm
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:57 am

The heat from a bike pump is from the pressure created. Even the hose on cheap pumps heats up, which is why some of them break. 8)

All gases are the same, and all are proven to conform with a great degree of accuracy to the gas laws: Charle's Law, Gay-Lussac's Law, Boyle's Law, the Combined Gas Law, and the Ideal Gas Law. There's really no arguing against them, Bubba. Only exceptions are gases at extremely high-pressure, extremely low temperature, or polar molecules like steam, (H<sub>2</sub>O), in which intermolecular forces screw with your estimated values. For a gas like air at relatively low pressures they will conform almost exactly to ALL of the laws.

I really don't want to argue over something so silly, especially with jrrdw, whom I admire quite a bit. So just Wiki the gas laws <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Laws">here</A>.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:00 am

Gases do get hot after being compressed. It's when they are decompressed that they get cold.
When I have a C02 tank filled it comes back to me slightly hotter than room temperature.I've also had a burst disc go on one of my tanks and it created a frozen ball.

Charles law pretty much states.When a gas is compressed, temperature is raised.Look it up on WIKI.
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Unread postAuthor: nuclearspud » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:05 am

Just wanted to add, I am taking HVAC courses and wanted to say that goathunter hit the nail on the head with Charles Law.
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Unread postAuthor: Bubba05 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:07 am

Yeah he want chilled air intake? So if you hook up an oxygen cylender to his cannon and turned the tap on the gas escaping from the cylender would be cold? Heat is only generated when the compression is taking place once its charged and settled its slighty warmer than room tempreture.

Yeah water intercoolers mate as i said they add over 100kg to the weight of the car. They wont tell you that on the sight coz there trying to sell you this set up witch is very bulky, heavy and needs constant maintanace to keep efficent. and not to mention a second radiator needs to be installed. with out even reading the artical you posted i mentioned and ice box witch i told you was usless.

They need to get there facts strait too! Superchargers BLOW compressed air into the motor via intake manafold. Turbo SUCKS compressed air from the motor via the exaust manafold.


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