Login    Register
User Information
Username:
Password:
We are a free and open
community, all are welcome.
Click here to Register
Sponsored
Who is online

In total there are 47 users online :: 5 registered, 0 hidden and 42 guests


Most users ever online was 218 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:58 pm

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot] based on users active over the past 5 minutes

The Team
Administrators
Global Moderators
global_moderators.png CS

interesting science question

All non-spudgun related discussion goes here such as projects, theories, serious questions, etc. All "off-topic" posts (aka useless posting, determined by moderators) will be removed.
Sponsored 
  • Author
    Message

Unread postAuthor: sandman » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:17 pm

but hey at least it dosent rust lol :P
  • 0


sandman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:59 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: pyromaniac » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:30 pm

I had thsi question too i thought it ment how would you prevent rust while the ship is being built. So in my head i was like build it on land duh!
  • 0

:pottytrain3:
User avatar
pyromaniac
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:18 pm
Location: MO
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Pilgrimman » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:51 pm

If you can't see, it's because you had a blinding flash of the obvious! :D :o
  • 0

Yeah, we wouldn't want to anger the bees, now would we??

I HATE YOU BEES! I HATE YOU BEES! I HATE YOU BEES!

LMAO Classic!!!! I love Family Guy!
User avatar
Pilgrimman
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:10 pm
Location: Grants Pass, OR
Reputation: 0

Re: interesting science question

Unread postAuthor: frankrede » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:23 pm

jimmy101 wrote:
frankrede wrote:
jimmy101 wrote:
mopherman wrote:well, my science homework had an interestion question today so i thought i would share it with you.

How would you rust proof a large sea-bearing ship? cheaply

Damn, that would be an awful big ship if it is big enough to carry a sea!

I suppose you meant a "sea-going" ship?

The "cheaply" part is the most important part of the question. In this case "cheaply" translates to "how it is actually done in practice" since "in practice" is basically the same as "cheaply".

Like everyone else said, ya paint it and attach sacrificial electrodes. It is the only cheap solution.

But those would eventually wear out?
and over time they would need to be replaced, while a wood ship would never rust, seeing that it isn't made of metal.

Nope, wood sucks as a building material. How many modern commercial ships are being built out of wood?

Wood rots in water. Untreated wood looses almost all of what little strength it has after submersion in water for just a few weeks.

Worms, and other organisms, eat wood.

How do you hold the wood in place? Wooden pegs? Any type of metal fastener will be very difficult to protect since most of the fastener is inaccessible.

So, the wood won't rust but it'll fail for a dozen other reasons long before a metal hull would.

With proper paint and a sacrificial electrode a steel hull ship will last essentially forever.

The next best materials to use for the hull of a large ship, after metals, is probably concrete, then fiberglass or other plastics.
But the question only asks for a "rust-proof" ship.
I know a steel ship would be better in every aspect, but wood answers the question the simplest.
  • 0

Current project: Afghanistan deployment
User avatar
frankrede
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:47 pm
Reputation: 0

Re: interesting science question

Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:10 am

frankrede wrote:But the question only asks for a "rust-proof" ship.
I know a steel ship would be better in every aspect, but wood answers the question the simplest.


Actuall, the question is "How would you rust proof a large sea-bearing ship? cheaply"

So "simple" isn't relevant. A wood ship would be rust proof but it would not be cheap.
  • 0

Image

jimmy101
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Country: United States (us)
Reputation: 7

Re: interesting science question

Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:22 pm

jimmy101 wrote:Actuall, the question is "How would you rust proof a large sea-bearing ship? cheaply"

Well, equally, by that definition, the rust proofing on a wooden boat is free. It doesn't specify that the boat has to be cheap.

And equally, most methods of rust proofing either take a lot of labour, or expensive materials. Rust-proofing isn't ever "cheap". Take a set of zinc anodes for a small narrow boat. A complete set of 4 will take quite a lot of money. And that's for a 50ft long boat that isnt in salt water.

For a large sea-bearing ship the cost would be higher for a set, then need replacing quite often as well.
  • 0

Novacastrian: How about use whatever the heck you can get your hands on?
frankrede: Well then I guess it won't matter when you decide to drink bleach because your out of kool-aid.
...I'm sorry, but that made my year.
User avatar
joannaardway
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:57 pm
Location: SW Hertfordshire, England, UK.
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:08 pm

No, the rust proofing on a wooden boat isn't free, unless you put it together with wooden pegs or glue. How do you keep the nails or screws from rusting? If they were galvanized, then how do you replentish the hidden surfaces as the galvanization coat dissolves? So, the wooden hull will require a coat of paint to protect both the wood and the metal fasteners.

Rust proofing is as cheap as painting. Sacrificial electrodes are just added protection. A couple big hunks of zinc don't cost much. Zinc is cheap. (In the US the $0.01 coin is copper plated zinc since zinc is a lot cheaper than copper.)

If the entire hull is a single conductive piece then only one sacrificial electrode is needed. In the paint coat is intact then no sacrifical electrodes are needed.

Aluminum can also be used in place of zinc. (Aluminum is usually used as the sacrificial electrode in home water systems.)
  • 0

Image

jimmy101
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Country: United States (us)
Reputation: 7

Sponsored

Sponsor
 


Unread postAuthor: Novacastrian » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:46 am

jimmy101 wrote:No, the rust proofing on a wooden boat isn't free, unless you put it together with wooden pegs or glue. How do you keep the nails or screws from rusting? If they were galvanized, then how do you replentish the hidden surfaces as the galvanization coat dissolves? So, the wooden hull will require a coat of paint to protect both the wood and the metal fasteners.

Rust proofing is as cheap as painting. Sacrificial electrodes are just added protection. A couple big hunks of zinc don't cost much. Zinc is cheap. (In the US the $0.01 coin is copper plated zinc since zinc is a lot cheaper than copper.)

If the entire hull is a single conductive piece then only one sacrificial electrode is needed. In the paint coat is intact then no sacrifical electrodes are needed.

Aluminum can also be used in place of zinc. (Aluminum is usually used as the sacrificial electrode in home water systems.)


Boat builders used copper nails, and lovely handcrafted joints like dovetails and the like.
  • 0


Novacastrian
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:59 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:19 am

They were selling this device at Canadian Tire which supposedly rust-proofs your car with electricity just by connecting it to the frame.

Not really sure how it works, and most of the "gadgetry" they sell at CT is ripoff bullshit, but if it did work, I suppose that would be pretty cheap.
  • 0

"If at first you dont succeed, then skydiving is not for you" - Darwin Awards

TurboSuper
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:44 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Marco321 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:00 am

TurboSuper wrote:They were selling this device at Canadian Tire which supposedly rust-proofs your car with electricity just by connecting it to the frame.

Not really sure how it works, and most of the "gadgetry" they sell at CT is ripoff bullshit, but if it did work, I suppose that would be pretty cheap.


Hey
That method provides electrons to the metal irons, turning them back into solid, preventing corrosion. It is used alot in industry
  • 0

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

The 7 P's - Proper Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance
User avatar
Marco321
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:56 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: williamfeldmann » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:57 am

The cheaply needs to be a long term effect or the question doesn't make sense. It would be useless to rustproof something for a month and then not care.

All ships, need painted for protection, either with paint or pitch or other protective finish, so that cost is the same for all ships. Coating the hull with another metal like aluminum, zinc, copper, whatever would cost an amazing amount of money and energy, and would also need replaced from time to time unless.... anodes are used. And by the way, the US Navy spends nearly a billion dollars a year in "sea-proofing" their fleet (granted it is a lot of ships) but that is paint and anodes almost exclusively.

A wood ship would cost more to build today than a metal ship but with proper care, meaning the drydocking for painting, a wooden ship could last much longer than a metal ship. And if you are particularly worried about the fastening method, use stainless steel spikes. They don't cost much more. There are several species of wood (cedar and cypress to name a few) that are nearly impervious to rot. A little over a year ago, the 175+ year old dam in my hometown was being torn out and replaced by concrete. I bought 10 10"x10" white oak and southern pine beams that had been under water for nearly 200 years and planed a 1/4" off each face and they look like new. I am going to run them to a sawmill and have lumber made for my furniture business with them.
  • 0

User avatar
williamfeldmann
2nd Lieutenant
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:55 pm
Location: Ames. Iowa, middle of BFE
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:27 pm

Marco321 wrote:
TurboSuper wrote:They were selling this device at Canadian Tire which supposedly rust-proofs your car with electricity just by connecting it to the frame.

Not really sure how it works, and most of the "gadgetry" they sell at CT is ripoff bullshit, but if it did work, I suppose that would be pretty cheap.


Hey
That method provides electrons to the metal irons, turning them back into solid, preventing corrosion. It is used alot in industry



Ah, cool. I figured it had something to do with that, but thanks for the info. I'm assuming you'd need alot of juice to work on a ship, though,
  • 0

"If at first you dont succeed, then skydiving is not for you" - Darwin Awards

TurboSuper
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:44 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Marco321 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:53 am

TurboSuper wrote:
Marco321 wrote:
TurboSuper wrote:They were selling this device at Canadian Tire which supposedly rust-proofs your car with electricity just by connecting it to the frame.

Not really sure how it works, and most of the "gadgetry" they sell at CT is ripoff bullshit, but if it did work, I suppose that would be pretty cheap.


Hey
That method provides electrons to the metal irons, turning them back into solid, preventing corrosion. It is used alot in industry



Ah, cool. I figured it had something to do with that, but thanks for the info. I'm assuming you'd need alot of juice to work on a ship, though,


I believe not as much as you think. I believe it has to do with the e-naught values of the particular metals, not the amount of metal. But i could be wrong.
  • 0

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

The 7 P's - Proper Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance
User avatar
Marco321
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:56 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: rna_duelers » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:44 am

Make the boat hull from a composite,like a polymer or carbon fiber.There is NO cost in rust proofing a boat if it doesn't require it.
  • 0

Image
User avatar
rna_duelers
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1740
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:07 am
Location: G-land Australia
Country: Australia (au)
Reputation: 1

Unread postAuthor: Novacastrian » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:14 am

williamfeldmann wrote:The cheaply needs to be a long term effect or the question doesn't make sense. It would be useless to rustproof something for a month and then not care.

All ships, need painted for protection, either with paint or pitch or other protective finish, so that cost is the same for all ships. Coating the hull with another metal like aluminum, zinc, copper, whatever would cost an amazing amount of money and energy, and would also need replaced from time to time unless.... anodes are used. And by the way, the US Navy spends nearly a billion dollars a year in "sea-proofing" their fleet (granted it is a lot of ships) but that is paint and anodes almost exclusively.

A wood ship would cost more to build today than a metal ship but with proper care, meaning the drydocking for painting, a wooden ship could last much longer than a metal ship. And if you are particularly worried about the fastening method, use stainless steel spikes. They don't cost much more. There are several species of wood (cedar and cypress to name a few) that are nearly impervious to rot. A little over a year ago, the 175+ year old dam in my hometown was being torn out and replaced by concrete. I bought 10 10"x10" white oak and southern pine beams that had been under water for nearly 200 years and planed a 1/4" off each face and they look like new. I am going to run them to a sawmill and have lumber made for my furniture business with them.


Thankyou William :D
  • 0


Novacastrian
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:59 pm
Reputation: 0

Previous

Return to Non-Spudgun Related Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot]

Reputation System ©'