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Concealed Carry on Campus

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READ POST BEFORE VOTING! Do you favor allow licensed, responsible college students 21 and over to carry a weapon on campus?

Yes - I think it's a good idea.
42
75%
No - I think it's a bad idea.
14
25%
 
Total votes : 56
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campus concealed carry

Unread postAuthor: feral_patriot » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:50 am

Pete Zaria:

I threw out the wax bullet bit as a "Ha-Ha".Fact is, I pretty much agree with you, too...to a point: A good marksman can make and will make the shot. Now, not a lot of civilians out there can "make" the shot.So, of course they're going to go for their biggest target.
I've never been known to do things the easiest way.If it's not hard, it's not worth doing.
I, was shot once, shot a few people...been stabbed a few times,sliced a few times, too. First stab wound was from a 19" bayonet that glanced off my sternum(creating a bone chip that worked it's way to the surface over 10 years later) and just barely slid through right next to my heart. The situation was very intense, to say the least, my ex-wife who was there(we were married then, she's dead now...it wasn't me!) went from panic & hysteria to a full on diabetic collapse after an instant asthma attack. Needless to say, she went down... which was just as well because she was a liability up to that point.
Our assailant didn't figure that I'd stop, look at him, look down at my chest, see the bayonet sticking out (he'd let go of it and had stumbled back and away...probably waiting for me to fall), open my sweater neck, t-shirt neck, polypropylene neck and then look back up at him.
I was pretty pissed off at that point( this is going to sound strange to a lot of people, but all I could think of was that he'd just ruined a favorite sweater from an elderly family friend).
I pulled it out, looked at it up and down, looked at him,his entire demeanor seemed to be changing. But, Pete, I ended up shooting that guy and his friends. I loaded my wife in our car and drove us both 37 miles into town to a hospital,parked at the ER doors, left her in the car, walked in,stood patiently, waiting for the nurse at the desk to finish with a previous person, and when she asked what I needed,I told her about my wife and then about myself...for some reason I could see in her eyes that she didn't really believe me, she reached for something under the counter shelf and the security dick showed up as I pulled my shirts off to show her my wound. Amazing what it takes to get a point across.Needless to say- they acted accordingly after that.
While I was on a gurny, two cops showed up to interview me, seperately.They ended up taking the guy's into custody, and I walked.
One of my step-fathers,when I was younger, had been a very highly respected jar-head,brilliant, but an asshole. Taught us 4 brothers and 1 sister how to shoot. We were all scared to death of him. He always said that humans were just animals and animals were put on this earth to be hunted (I've not heard of many other people ballsy? enough to hunt Alaskan red bear with nothing but a .41 Dan Wesson). WE were taght in a number of ways...but what we've come to realize since we've grown on in years away from his memory is he WAS crazy (learning to shoot at mannequins from near and far, for instance), but we still have all the "skills" he "embedded" into us...He shot me. one day when he was drunk,again, and it was my turn to hang out down below to set back up the dummies. I don't tell my little ones when they are crawling on my lower left leg and they put their weight on that spot and I still cry out in pain years later now, because I still have a fragment near my tibial crest. ... a .22 is a .22 no matter how far away or how long ago.
I've shot more than my share of hoodlums as an adult, every one of them justified if that's what you want to call it- but by who's standard is the question; never killed one, they ALL stopped what they were doing though to pay all of their attention to themselves.
Your post, Pete, makes me think that maybe you're more of a libertarian than a liberal...doesn't matter anyhoo, glad to know ya!
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Re: campus gun carry

Unread postAuthor: SPG » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:41 am

feral_patriot wrote:When every man/woman carried a gun there was far less crime. Crime, itself did not become the problematic social discourse until the polit-bureau's started changing/adding gun laws... which also coincided with the "need" for more officers of the law.


Yes, because of course the Wild West was a far safer place. Go check facts, year on year crime rates are falling in all westernised nations, different types of crime may increase but the overall rates are down, and this is for nations with very strict gun laws and those with almost none.

What is up is reporting, and the public perception that crime is worse now that it was before, because we now have a media which seeks out the sensational, because the average doesn't attract viewing figures.

So parents keep kids indoors because they think it's no longer safe for them to go out, when in fact crime is down compared to how it was when I was an 8 year old 30 years ago.

As I said in an earlier post, if you look at college shootings in particular (and that is what this is about) they tend to be carried out by people using legally purchased weapons. Why? well because if you look at the avergae college shooter they're young, they're socially inept, and they don't have the links to the criminal fraternity to get hold of illegal weapons.

So, you want to cut down on college shootings? There's an easy way, make it harder for people to buy guns and go shooting. I'm not saying make it impossible, but make it easier than walking into a store and walking out with a gun, insist say on mandatory training, I'm sure your gun companies would sponsor this, it's a great showcase for their products after all, have a background check, have a seven day period between ordering and collection (I mean very few people need a gun today, you can wait a week). In general make it as hard to get a gun as it appears it is to get a concealed carry permit in some states (I know in others you just say hi, and pay some cash and get your prints taken).

If you're a responsible gun owner, you won't object to any of this, you'll welcome it, as it means you guys get to have your weapons, and those guys who might just shoot you or your kids at college are less likely to.
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Unread postAuthor: JDAX23 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:02 pm

and you only need one person with a gun to make a difference.


I disagree... if im this one person, and im in the bathroom taking a dump, and across campus is an attacker, well that did a lot of good

and i can see the teachers carrying a gun, but to allow the students to do so i think is not only overkill but i think more bad would come then good... sure its a great idea if everyone would act like pete and only draw if in serious danger, but we all know that some idiots would shoot for far less reasons, ruining this idea... so i still think it would do more harm then good
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:02 pm

JDAX23 wrote:
and you only need one person with a gun to make a difference.


I disagree... if im this one person, and im in the bathroom taking a dump, and across campus is an attacker, well that did a lot of good

and i can see the teachers carrying a gun, but to allow the students to do so i think is not only overkill but i think more bad would come then good... sure its a great idea if everyone would act like pete and only draw if in serious danger, but we all know that some idiots would shoot for far less reasons, ruining this idea... so i still think it would do more harm then good

I said in a class, not on the other side of the campus. Don't paraphrase me and then criticize the quote.
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Unread postAuthor: JDAX23 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:16 pm

sorry guess i missed that part i just dont feel that students need to carry guns to school
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:26 pm

JDAX23 wrote:I disagree... if im this one person, and im in the bathroom taking a dump, and across campus is an attacker, well that did a lot of good

You know, Superman never has these problems. His toilet breaks always happen when there's no world crisis.
Spiderman wouldn't have it so easy - if anything can make his life more difficult, it happens - it's either Murphy's law, or sloppy scripting.

...and, I need to lay off the tiredness.
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Unread postAuthor: JDAX23 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:28 pm

haha thanks for the comic relief, much needed
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Unread postAuthor: uberlad » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:35 am

Well, if Superman went to my university, I sure wouldn't feel the need to carry a gun, and if Bruce Banner did, I'd be afraid to.
You dont wanna make him angry
You won't like him when he's angry :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: cdheller » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Sorry to dig up a dead topic But this Kinda relates

""CCRKBA SAYS PRESS PURPOSELY DOWNPLAYS KEY ROLE OF ARMED STUDENT IN JERUSALEM
BELLEVUE, WA - An armed student at Jerusalem's Mercaz Haray seminary played a crucial role in stopping a gun-wielding terrorist Thursday, but the American press is downplaying his heroism because it proves that armed students can stop campus gunmen, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said today.

Yitzhak Dadon, 40, was described as "a private citizen who had a gun license and was able to shoot the gunman with his pistol" by reporter Etgar Lefkovitz with the Jerusalem Post. However, many news agencies in the United States are downplaying Dadon's decisive role in the incident.


Internationally published reports say Dadon studies at the yeshiva, and had his pistol when the shooting erupted. When the gunman emerged from a library, Dadon reportedly shot him twice in the head. The gunman was subsequently shot by the off-duty soldier.

"Yitzhak Dadon's apparently well-placed bullets interrupted a rampage," Gottlieb said. "What a pity that someone like Mr. Dadon was not in class last April at Virginia Tech. What a tragedy that anti-gun extremism would keep him from attending class at Northern Illinois University. He would never be allowed to teach at Columbine High School, hold a job at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, or go shopping at Omaha's Westroads Mall.""
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:39 pm

cdheller wrote:Sorry to dig up a dead topic But this Kinda relates.

It does relate, but I think that perhaps it was best this topic was dead - gun law debates seem to stir up the hornet's nest so to speak.

However, I think it doesn't help the argument either way, because eight people still died in the attack, Dadon is much older and maturer than the average college student, and reading around on the subject, the gunman did continue to fire even after Dadon shot him:

Dadon says the terrorist continued firing even after he was hurt.
“He kept on firing until an IDF officer arrived and shot him again,” Dadon said.


So, in this circumstance, the gunman wasn't actually stopped by Dadon, which gives a little weight to my earlier point that people, even when shot, can continue to cause damage.

The problem in this situation is that the CCRKBA are trying to overplay Dadon's role in the incident, much like they claim the media are trying to downplay it. On matters like this that provoke controversy, you really need to look for both sides of the story.

Dadon may have helped, but he didn't actually stop the gunman, and he's an older and maturer person than the average college student that is trying to argue for their guns on their campuses.

Students are frequently around alcohol - and in spite of earlier arguments, estimates suggest that 31% of murders are committed by a drunk attacker. As the concealed carry and legal age for alcohol are the same, you can't know what a person will be like when they get drunk, so you can't be sure that putting a gun in their hands won't have consequences.

Anyway, I still maintain that the odds of dying in such an attack are so slim that being concerned about it is quite pointless.

Mind you, nor does it really matter to me, so meh.
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Unread postAuthor: SPG » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:28 pm

Don't forget as an Israeli Dadon would also have done his compulsory military service and be trained in firearms handling.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:33 pm

SPG wrote:Don't forget as an Israeli Dadon would also have done his compulsory military service and be trained in firearms handling.

Hmm, I always forget things like that. If he was trained, and still didn't manage to fully stop the gunman, I don't see that as a good sign for the average college student.
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