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Gun vs Knife at 21 Feet

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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:27 pm

yeah I agree with jared.... basicly everything can be difficult in high stress situtations - I suppose that throwing a knife is even more difficult than shooting the gun in such circumstances
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Unread postAuthor: Sergeant Dotson » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:07 pm

My answer, if you had been in combat for a minute or so you would be aware if the guys buddy charges you. For example, in the movie Indiana Jones and the Ark of the Covenant, when Indy encounters an Arab that pulls out a big scimitar, he pulls out his Colt revolver and quickly gets rid of his enemy. I know that that is just a movie, but the fact is, a gun could easily overthrow a knife. But at the same time, you are right, situational awareness can be a key factor in a "fist-fist" fight, or in this case a "knife-gun" fight.

-Sergeant Dotson
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:54 pm

@Sergeant Dotson: Yes, but in Raiders of the Lost Ark, you're not dealing with a surprise attack. If you're already in combat, as presumably most people don't specialise in fist-fighting and whips like Indy, you'll already have a gun drawn. Nor will your opponents take time to slow off flashy moves.
So the film is a very bad example.

If you already have a gun drawn, and you get charged, in that case the results will be fairly obvious. If you have to draw your gun, you're probably in trouble.
My advice would be: If you are being attacked and your weapon is not immediately at hand - regardless of how they are armed, dodge them then run (appropriately), while making as much noise as possible. Draw any weapon you may have while running, and hope the adrenaline surge can keep you going.

That's going to give your best chance of survival - unless you are telekinetic, in which case I suggest psychically throwing the person into (and possibly through) a nearby wall as hard as possible.
However, if you're unfortunate enough to not live in a sci-fi world, just run like buggery while making enough noise to shame a Who concert.

@ALIHISGREAT: A gun is only of use if you can draw and fire it fast enough. I'd rather have the knife.
Although frankly, I'd rather not be in the situation in the first place.
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Unread postAuthor: cdheller » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:01 pm

Pete said
"Interesting reading. I think this article and video (or a similar, maybe better one) should be required homework to get a CCW permit. "

I'm not sure if it's required here(Texas) but it was covered in the class I took. Homework is not part of the program.

Jared Haehnel wrote:I forgot to mention that even if you shot at the attacker and hit him/her, the forward momentum of the attacker charing you would probably reach the shooter with enough force to tackle / injure the shooter.

They don't just up and stop like the movies and video games...

Not to mention if you shoot them with a standard caliber CW pistol they probably will have some fight left to them...

Now I think I'm beating a dead horse

+1

a bunch of cases where attacker was fately shot yet killed before dieing .
a major black mark for the F.B.I. was their infamous rolling stakeout in Florida.
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
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Unread postAuthor: Sergeant Dotson » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:34 pm

Ragnarok, if you read the top of my post, it says "if you have already been in combat for a minute or so." Please read the whole comment before judging differentially.
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Unread postAuthor: pizlo » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:22 pm

Jared Haehnel wrote:Ok, lets examine this video. As far as I can tell the one who wields the knife is the defender. He would have to pack this knife in full view of the public which would be illegal in most states. Its to big for any practical use. I.e a box opener, or cooking. So its pretty much useless unless he does bushwhacking on a regular basis. And completely defeats the purpose of a concealed weapon.

The gun man is posed to shoot already so he's probably already dead. Secondly if he had missed he just through away a perfectly good knife and the attacker would get a shot off... he'd be dead.

If it was an attacker with the knife it would be another instance in where the knife won out...or it would be an instant where the defender with a pistol won out. Either way you would have to practice a long to time to get the knife to stick consistently.

Movies like this just tick me off because the do not in any way reflect the practicality of whats being shown. Sure, I can shoot targets all day but under a high stress situation I don't know how I would preform...most of us here wouldn't know what to do... Its all speculation... the only ones who know how to react in situations like that are those who have been there.

wow I just thought it was cool, I didn't mean that as an answer to the question, Jeez.
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Unread postAuthor: Jared Haehnel » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:44 pm

I didn't mean any offense just not a big fan of those type of movies and I thought it illistrated a point which ought to have been covered. :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: pizlo » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:46 pm

Were all friends here, and people ask stuff here cause they want different opinions so yeah its all good. :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: ammosmoke » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:18 pm

Look at my post one youtube. (Don't feel like retyping)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f0fkLNg&NR=1
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:23 pm

Sergeant Dotson wrote:Please read the whole comment before judging differentially.

Actually, I did read your entire post, but you've not read my post quite right.

I accepted your point, but also said the film is not a good example of the gun/blade comparison we're currently looking at, because it shows a very different circumstance.

In the hypothetical knife vs. gun situation in question, the knife is actually the advantage over the gun, in contrast to you talking about the gun's superiority.

My other question is, why should anyone still be in combat after a minute or so? Unless you're in exceptional circumstances, most encounters are much shorter than that.
In almost all cases, your main objective should be to get the hell out of there.

@cdheller: I remember reading an item in a book that talked about a incident where someone had to be shot 33 times by two police officers before he was finally stopped.
Both officers were forced to reload their S&W M59 9mm pistols.

It's part of my point against the effectiveness of firearms in self-defence, including the college example. If some people need to be shot 33 times to stop them (even with the slightly infamous 9x19mm round), then what hope will a panicked defender have in such a situation?

This also brings up my worries about concealed carry on campuses - when on adrenaline, people are tougher than you might think.
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Unread postAuthor: ammosmoke » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:29 pm

Well, if a bullet won't stop them, a knife sure as hell won't.
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Unread postAuthor: hi » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:38 pm

you could always just take a 1/2'' thick steel barrel and put small wheels on it, then have a bullet proof glass window so you can see. then the only thing that would get through is a very high powered rifle, wich you wouldnt see in close quarters combat.

but to be realistic about it, i dont think you really need to worry about it unless you live in a really bad area or unless you are a cop. you have to do something to have someone kill you with a knife.
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Unread postAuthor: Jared Haehnel » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:39 pm

I belive the 9x 19 mm is the .380 which is the shorter cusion of the 9mm most 9mm pistols shoot. That round suffers from under penitration. So it is enterly possible depending on the person that those bullets didn't even penatrate the chest cavity. Factors would include what kind of clothing tha man was wearing, distance shots were fired, and what was the guys size? People hyped up on illegal drugs and some time adrenaline often with stand a brutal amount force befroe going down.

I even read a combat report from Iraq that an insergent got back up and started running at our solidier after taking a shot from a .50BMG round from a Barret .50 . I believe it was to the chest... I might be wrong on the shot placement so don't quote me.

If it was the full size 9mm round then I'm suprised but not to much since the 9mm is also under rated for stopping power... Don't belive me? Read some of the combat reports of the Barreta M92.
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Unread postAuthor: Flying_Salt » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:43 pm

It would take either a stupid or smart attacker to continue running at someone who is reaching for a gun. A stupid attacker would think "I'm faster, I can beat him" and continue his assault. A smart attacker would know that he has time on his side and not waver. However, an average-intelligence thug would reason that gun>knife and run the other way and get shot.

If someone is facing an attacker who is 21 feet away, I don't know who would make a frontal melee attack on someone with a gun who could see it coming from 21 feet away and take necessary measures. In my opinion, this study is only valid if the gun-carrier is caught unawares.

If one is caught unaware, guns make great clubs or noisemakers; a shotgun loaded with birdshot makes great home defense because it won't kill but it will scare the heck out of someone. Even if you can't get a good shot, shooting the gun is all that matters because it will make an attacker think twice.

Long story short, the person with the gun has an advantage. Mind you, I'm from Texas, its one of the more "shoot on sight" kind of states.

*sniff* ahh, spudfiles. I wonder if I've been forgotten...
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Unread postAuthor: Jared Haehnel » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:00 pm

The sight of a gun has detered many people but I think it would take a very smart attacker to realize that the person was reaching for a gun in his pocket.

The smart defense would run away... at least untill he was in better postition... I.E. gun drawn, cocked locked and ready to fire...or more preferably in some sort of safe custody...

If the person is already charging at you forget it...just run like crazy.
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