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Gun vs Knife at 21 Feet

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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:19 pm

Jared Haehnel wrote:I belive the 9x 19 mm is the .380 which is the shorter cusion of the 9mm most 9mm pistols shoot.

9x19mm Parabellum, the full-fat conventional military 9mm round - it's the only size the S&W M59 is chambered in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_59

Same round as the Beretta 92 uses.

Unfortunately, there wasn't much more information in the book, and I can find no information about said event on the internet. However, we know a few things from wording and context.

It's 33 hits, not shots. The M59 only has a 14 round magazine, and each officer reloaded (number of times is not stated, but I suspect if one had reloaded twice, it would have said so), so hit rate is at worst 60%.
We don't know where those shots hit, but that hit rate suggests a fairly short range anyway, so rounds are maintaining reasonable velocity, accuracy and stability.

The bullets were non-expanding. I know this because the event was quoted to demonstrate the flaws of the conventional 9mm.

It doesn't mention illegal drugs, but I suspect that if it were the case, it would be noted. But even if it were, the only way drug abuse will keep you upright there is by affecting the nervous system (because, correct me if I'm wrong - there is no drug that will reduce the effect bullets actually have on your flesh), which means that potentially, the drug abuse need not actually be a factor.

But, you can tell from the report that contrary to the Hollywood view of "He's shot, he's stopped", the human body can take more punishment than you might expect.

Still, someone taking a .50 cal in the chest and keeping moving sounds a little "odd" to say the least - not that I'm accusing you of lying.
People are sometimes tough, but that's a whole new level.
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Does that thing kinda look like a big cat to you?
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Unread postAuthor: hi » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:00 am

what if you are this guy?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xzv6AK7fFgY&feature=related

or this guy...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ol0mfCin8rU&feature=related

they do have holsters that are specifically designed for fast draws. most people dont have them, but they do exist. some people can draw in less than 1/10 of second. of course they are ready, but that is still very fast.

they even have made holsters where the just is on a swivel on your belt and all you have to do is swivel it in the general direction, you dont have to draw your gun.

i think what it all comes down to is who is more determined. if you get shot, you can still keep going. if you get stabbed, you can still keep going. it all boils down to who has the most experience and most practice and who can do it the fastest.
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"physics, gravity, and law enforcement are the only things that prevent me from operating at my full potential" - not sure, but i like the quote

you know you are not an engineer if you have to remind yourself "left loosy righty tighty"
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Unread postAuthor: feral_patriot » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:55 am

and if the assailant is a faster runner than you? then what?
I've been lurking here in the shadows reading the back-n-forth on this...a few of you are really getting it together. kudos to you.
if you're going to retreat, DO NOT TURN YOUR BACK ON YOUR ASSAILANT; if you want to live.
set up a mock range somewhere and practice w/ a toy gun the concept of drawing while retreating as well as bringing up the weapon to fire.
It is important that you are already proficient in the ability to point and shoot from varying positions using a variety of weapons; if not, you can still practice this with your dummy.
It is tactically inefficient to expect to be able to draw your weapon and raise it to aim and fire at your assailant as presented in the vid's.
do not put your index finger on the trigger( this is where bringing up the weapon and firing without looking down the sight at your attacker comes into play- pop-pop. two rounds, 3 if you need'em, using your index finger to "point" at your"target"; the first thing in the field of vision- not yours but the field of vision of your gun barrel is your attackers lower extremities. yes, they're moving, moving towards you, bring him with. At this point dead on accuracy is not terribly critical since a spray of two to three rounds stands a fairly high chance of making contact.) Taking the time to get a body shot will cost anybody, period.Doing this while backing up facing the opponent- this is a stance that must be practiced on varying terrains so you get a good feel for what is going on. Back up, draw, fire fire,be backing up those shots have made contact, assailant has stumbled still towards you your next move depends on his. sure you could now kill him or take him into custody or let him lay there writhing in pain while you call the pigs, or you could walk away and risk seeing him another day or night, or you could do the world a favor and plug him again, fatally somewhere that will be consistent with the firs gun shot wounds, proving that you were the victim, all the way, since at this point the tables have turned and if you shoot him in any other area that does not follow the pattern layout, you could be facing charges yourself for excessive force or ?... how do you want it to go? it is up to you....otherwise, get a grip that fits you, more importantly a weapon that you are comfortable holding, that is not going to fatigue your wrist/forearm.carry it around with you , loaded properly, in your house with the curtains drawn so you don't freak out the neighbors,around your property at night,etc, get the picture? once you find your buddy, practice practice practice or just go to Frontsight(.com) and get properly trained.but anyway, if you carry on campus or anywhere and you are presented w/ a nut case trying to take everybody out are you really going to be able to shoot to kill? or even to immobilize? are you going to waste all your ammo trying to hit him/her, not even realizing that those slugs are going through walls and probably hitting somebody else?
You can't just spray and pray in that kind of scenario.if you are going to play the hero, you better damn well be of the school of one shot, one kill...though as I pointed out to my own teenagers when I taught them to shoot, you don't have to shoot to kill, it's just that the law has brainwashed citizen joe into this fantastic notion of body mass hits. Training that way does not produce expert marksmanship, only killers. Train to make the shot, be creative... try a 1/4" field of vertical vision with a gun or rifle and hit specific points, not just the center of a target.
if you can't get over the notion of being able to maliciously inflict damage when the situation arises, than you'll probably never fire the piece you pack around...It's about fight or flight, if you are inherently a non- confrontational type, you'd be better off learning to use your hands and feet.
Campus carry sounds like a good idea, but, unfortunately, in my own humble opinion, there are not a whole handful of better than good firearms training facilities out there that are capable of turning out people who are both willing AND able to actually squeeze the trigger and shoot someone.
Humans are animals and God put animals on the earth to be hunted. In the world of animals there are both predator and prey, and the two interchange at the blink of an eye. Problem is, are you predator or are you prey? Ordinary people lay sleeping restfully because rough men stand ready to do their bidding, to defend them and their way of life. I've lived long enough and have watched my kids grow up and some of them provide me with grandchildren,and I've come to realize that the rough man in me has always been there...waiting...while I was laughing and cherishing my children who'll all end up on a campus somewhere, and will have taken with them knowing how and when to shoot, as well as where. They'll take with them the experience of dressing out deer, bear,elk, cutting heads off chickens and preparing them(not the heads, you fools) for dinner. They have the understanding of what the insides of an animal do and what happens when they shoot to kill. If you live in a big city and have never hunted,you're missing out on our heritage...which is grossly twisting itself into shards of splintered glass on our school and collage campuses. the best way to stop campus shootings is to teach our children to be nice, and civil to one another, and to cane every son-of-a-bitch that tries to be a bully. The bullies are the ones who're getting everybody else killed, too.Instead of carrying guns on campus, why don't people just be more situationally aware and not push other peoples buttons? People today just don't have the coping skills of my generation, but it is some of my generation that has caused that, too. No other countries drug their children like we do. ...
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Last edited by feral_patriot on Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:02 am

The actual quote, often attributed to George Orwell, is this:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


A fact that most sadly take for granted :?
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Unread postAuthor: feral_patriot » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:03 am

Correct you are, I was / am just too tired to open the quote folder and find it to copy and paste it... so, thank you for honoring Mr Orwell properly for those of us who know and give a hoot.... and for pointing it out to those who complain about our government but wouldn't they themselves ever dream of leaving the comfort and security of this fine land they love to hate to go live with the sand-niggers who'd use their heads for soccer balls. :idea:
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Unread postAuthor: Jared Haehnel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:05 am

9x19mm Parabellum, the full-fat conventional military 9mm round - it's the only size the S&W M59 is chambered in


Thanks for correcting me I wasn't sure so you all can just about disregard my last post on that...

About the military report I would have to go back an reread that. It could have been an arm or leg...the fact is he got back up...
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Unread postAuthor: aetherguy881 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:54 am

Dude, bump your concealed weapons thread at theopia with this... It makes a good follow up for it.

Makes sense, I still need to find a good knife for myself...
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Unread postAuthor: Jared Haehnel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:05 am

A good big knife is the K-bar... At least I bring mine to all my hunting camping trips. It heavy enough to serve as a hammer, pry bary (you viod the warranty though) The only down side and plus is its carbon steel. Takes a real nice edge but won't hold for long.. and the steel is prone to rust if your not careful

For concealed carry Gerber knives are all very nice.... multi-use and strong...

Just for suggestions.
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