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Unread postAuthor: starman » Tue May 13, 2008 8:10 pm

jimmy101 wrote:
Computers usually count hexadecimal.


Anal attack....

Computers don't usually count in hex. They count in binary. Hex just sucks 4 binary digits up into a single digit. There are relatively few computers that actually use 4 bits for anything. The smallest common word size in modern computers is 8-bits. Most modern computers don't even use 8-bits as a logical unit anymore, usually it is at least 16 or 32 bits.


Even so, an 8 bit byte is represented as 2 - 4 bit nibbles, FF for instance and 16 bits are represented as 4 - 4 bit nibbles, FFFF, etc. It's still very much alive for nomenclature, not so much as a data structure size in programming as you mentioned.
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Tue May 13, 2008 9:42 pm

Sorry, by "arbitrary", I meant that it uses a logical system to convert between hours,days,minutes,etc... with a very simple and uniform method. Kind of like how the metric system made all measurement units be convertable by multiples of 10.


And, of course, thank you all for the positive feedback :D
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Unread postAuthor: Carlman » Tue May 13, 2008 10:15 pm

my lecturer for uni had a bourd he made that counted in hexadcimal, binary and decimal at the push of buttons. he couold also slow down the counting and reverse it :D
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Unread postAuthor: BigGrib » Wed May 14, 2008 12:14 am

Dude not to sound like an a hole, but this is f ing stupid, i mean cool you built something but what practical use does this thing have, it's like you're trying to re invent the wheel or something hell i dont know. any damage pics?
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Yea, that's definitely going to get you at least a tazer.

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Unread postAuthor: daxspudder » Wed May 14, 2008 12:28 am

@starman yes thank you for that sweet sweet scolding!

hex decimal is explained the same as all number systems, with the 3 "laws" of number systems.
1:must have a null value(aka 0)
2:must have as many represented number as the system implies(for binary 0 and 1, for decimal 0-9[10 numbers], and hex 0-F[16 numbers]
3:can be converted by law of exponent exchange(...)
LAW OF EXPONENTIAL EXCHANGE
this is gonna be a pain for some of you to grasp...
ill start with decimal, by simply explaining the "place values" the systems can be related, and likewise converted, that is to say:
decimal:10 binary:1010 hex:A
in each the numbers all equal the same thing, the difference is the place values, i.e. the right digit in decimal is ten to the zero power(any number to the zero power is 1), or the ones place... the left digit is the tens place, so if you add the total of the two, 0 ones and 1 ten, you get 10; the right digit in binary is two to the zero power, or the ones place(0), the second from the left is 2 to the first power, or the twos place (the one means one 2...), the second from the left is two to the second power(4s place), and the right is two to the third(8s place).... so if you have '0' ones, '1' two, '0' fours, and '1' eight (1010 in binary) add them and you get 10 in decimal... to explain all number systems this simple formula can be used...
x=number system(2=binary, 10=decimal, etc)
i dont think i can type this, if you really care and have read this much im sorry, but its quite simple when you understand it... if your really smart you can figure out the rest of the number systems your self... but PM me if you want to know more...
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Wed May 14, 2008 7:16 am

BigGrib wrote:Dude not to sound like an a hole, but this is f ing stupid, i mean cool you built something but what practical use does this thing have, it's like you're trying to re invent the wheel or something hell i dont know. any damage pics?

Heck... it's a project? It doesn't need to have any specific purpose - sometimes it's just about building something. I've built miniature pneumatic engines, which could barely be used to power anything, but it's still fun to build them.

Anyway... it can still be used to tell the time. It's just a different time system - much like centimetres and inches are different length systems.

I think it's pretty cool myself.

And if you want damage pics, consider that time destroys all.
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Does that thing kinda look like a big cat to you?
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Wed May 14, 2008 7:53 am

BigGrib wrote:Dude not to sound like an a hole, but this is f ing stupid, i mean cool you built something but what practical use does this thing have, it's like you're trying to re invent the wheel or something hell i dont know. any damage pics?


Ok, I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole, but you have some pretty hypocritical logic going on there. Think about it, we're on a spudgun forum, what use do spudguns have? You'll find a good number of people prepared to tell you spudguns are "f ing stupid".

Oh, and I specifically mentioned that it was useless in the title. At least read the title before posting, lol.

My real motives for building this were mostly what Starman and Rag nailed down- that it's just so I can have some fun with (and learn about) digital logic. Plus the setting sequence is fun to play with :P
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Wed May 14, 2008 3:43 pm

daxspudder wrote:hex decimal is explained the same as all number systems, with the 3 "laws" of number systems.
1:must have a null value(aka 0)


anal atack again...

There is no requirement that a number system has to have a null value. Roman numerals don't have a null value. Having a null value makes a lot of things easier (ever try dividing roman numerals?) but it is by no means required.

BTW, zero was invented in India, even though most western languages attribute it to Arabia and Arabic.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Wed May 14, 2008 3:54 pm

starman wrote:
jimmy101 wrote:
Computers usually count hexadecimal.


Anal attack....

Computers don't usually count in hex. They count in binary. Hex just sucks 4 binary digits up into a single digit. There are relatively few computers that actually use 4 bits for anything. The smallest common word size in modern computers is 8-bits. Most modern computers don't even use 8-bits as a logical unit anymore, usually it is at least 16 or 32 bits.


Even so, an 8 bit byte is represented as 2 - 4 bit nibbles, FF for instance and 16 bits are represented as 4 - 4 bit nibbles, FFFF, etc. It's still very much alive for nomenclature, not so much as a data structure size in programming as you mentioned.

So why hex and not base 8?

Hex is a leftover from when most computers were 8-bit machines and much coding was done in binary or assembly. It was a lot easier for the programmer to work in Hex and the translation from hex to binary could be done with very simple hardware or software.

Today, there is really no reason to ever use hex. For historical reasons there are a few things that are still represented (sometime) in hex, like color values. There is really no reason to do that any longer. It doesn't save CPU cycles, it doesn't make it easier for a human and computer to communicate. Bottom line, using hex accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want pure white on an 8-bit a gray scale then 255 makes just as much sense (and is easier to use) than is FF. It is only because of "cultural momentum" that hex is still used. Any advantages it had became irrelevant many computer generations ago.


Back to the OP. Easy enough to convert the clock from hex to binary, a couple BCD drivers and move a few wires on the main adder/counter/shift register(s) and you’ve got regular time. A HEX clock is simply a celebration of geek-dom. :D
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu May 15, 2008 1:24 am

jimmy101 wrote:So why hex and not base 8?

Hex is a leftover from when most computers were 8-bit machines and much coding was done in binary or assembly. It was a lot easier for the programmer to work in Hex and the translation from hex to binary could be done with very simple hardware or software.

Today, there is really no reason to ever use hex. For historical reasons there are a few things that are still represented (sometime) in hex, like color values. There is really no reason to do that any longer. It doesn't save CPU cycles, it doesn't make it easier for a human and computer to communicate. Bottom line, using hex accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want pure white on an 8-bit a gray scale then 255 makes just as much sense (and is easier to use) than is FF. It is only because of "cultural momentum" that hex is still used. Any advantages it had became irrelevant many computer generations ago.



Why not base 4 or heck, why not just stay base 2... :roll:

For machine level programmers (yes modern day ones too), one of which I have been in other lifetimes, hex offers a much clearer way to address, mask off and operate on CPU registers and memory. It is far from obsolete at that level.

When programming higher level programs, hex usage becomes much less meaningful in most cases. However, its usage can have advantages in certain circumstances.

Computer science and particularly computer engineering majors should be comfortable working in hexidecimal. They will be unnecessarily crippled to some extent if not.
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Unread postAuthor: daxspudder » Thu May 15, 2008 2:37 am

... as a computer science major, hex is very necessary. all "high" level languages basic job is to interface with binary, and hex is the most practical to use in any language that is written in ascii code, octo is good, but takes roughly twice as many bytes per number to code in, therefore hex is easier to use. basically at the point anything other than 1s and 0s are used ascii is involved or some similar form...
/rant
@jimmy101, while most of that is true, think of it like this, why count what you don't have (i.e. 0) in roman times? or have number systems other than one that relys on your hands to conceptualize... if they had computers they would have 0s... that is one thing im pretty sure of... also when we write 4 we dont write 15... and math in general doesnt work in roman numerals, its like comparing apples and oranges...
/rantx2

look here for all your info needs... no laws, i learned those in school...
http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~csonline/Numb ... index.html
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Unread postAuthor: BigGrib » Thu May 15, 2008 2:56 am

TurboSuper wrote:You'll find a good number of people prepared to tell you spudguns are "f ing stupid".


Spudguns may be stupid to some people, but there is a certain amount of pride that comes with hitting a par 5 on the green in one shot from your GB cannon ;) I just got home from a day at the links with my GB Combustion Cannon. Now I just need to work on my "putter" :idea:
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Yea, that's definitely going to get you at least a tazer.

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