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water for gas

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Is it a scam?

yes
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no
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Total votes : 15
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Thu May 15, 2008 12:37 am

yes, I realize, just pointing out how easily it can be converted, not that it should, just for science's sake.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu May 15, 2008 1:05 am

goathunter wrote:I think the real promise for cheaper fuel costs is back to the old days. Ethanol and veg oil. Leave it up to the people to make their own fuels.


I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I think the attempt to use the world's FOOD products and resources as a significant source of energy for the masses has got to be one of the most dumbass ideas to come along in modern times. Ethanol can't be piped and has to be trucked everywhere, so there's massive inefficiencies in its production and delivery. It's only somewhat viable as a fuel right now because governments are subsidizing its production...but that means you're paying for it twice through taxation. The market could never sustain ethanol usage otherwise.

Anyone checked the price of food products lately...relative to only a few months ago?

I predict ethanol will die a necessary death as a main stream fuel...probably sooner than you think.

In the short term, we need more oil drillin' folks...big time! The long term answer is a hydrogen/fuel cell/electric economy. However, it's going to take several years to build up the proper infrastructure to support it.
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Unread postAuthor: benstern » Thu May 15, 2008 1:44 am

starman wrote:
goathunter wrote:In the short term, we need more oil drillin' folks...big time! The long term answer is a hydrogen/fuel cell/electric economy. However, it's going to take several years to build up the proper infrastructure to support it.


Why not just use methane? We already got all it's infrastructure already built and running and there is plenty of it on earth!
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu May 15, 2008 2:05 am

benstern wrote:
starman wrote:In the short term, we need more oil drillin' folks...big time! The long term answer is a hydrogen/fuel cell/electric economy. However, it's going to take several years to build up the proper infrastructure to support it.


Why not just use methane? We already got all it's infrastructure already built and running and there is plenty of it on earth!


You bet! Methane would be great, the earth is brimming with it...mostly undersea. Just have to go get it is all.

Bonus points for you benstern.. :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: Killjoy » Thu May 15, 2008 3:15 am

Ethanol is just politicians attempting to act like they're trying to do something. It will hurt more people then it will help in the long run.

I've done some work with a group on biodiesel and producing large quantities of oil out of algae. From what I saw they actually seemed to be on the right track. All they had to do was grow massive amounts of algae (in long clear tubing), and then put it in a giant press to squeeze out the oil the algae naturally contained. Their prototyped worked quite well as produced a viable amount of oil to run a car, so they're upping the scale.
The only down side was that the growing fields for the algae would have to be pretty massive to significantly cut our oil dependence, but its pretty cheap to set everything up so a large area wouldn't be too expensive.

But this site seems like a joke. Besides all the points about thermodynamics and physics made here, there's a little picture towards the bottom of the page which shows the device. Basically it was a mason jar with wire in it, not exactly very efficient or a large gas producing device.

Edit:
I'm not sure what the hell these people are doing, but they tell you how to build the device about 3/4 of the way down the page. Connections, measurements, almost everything. A lot of what they say seems like BS, especially the special "Spiral" electrodes and the "steam cleaning" of the engine, but they seem to have people to support their claims so I don't think we can write them off completely just yet
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Thu May 15, 2008 5:11 am

Do try to understand that this site is not promoting a completely onboard electrolyisis fuel system. It is using a small amount of hydrogen to increase the intensity of gasoline, it is not a replacement for gasoline, and is not being advertized as such (despite the somewhat misleading name).
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Thu May 15, 2008 10:18 am

Lentamentalisk wrote:http://www.instructables.com/id/Run-Your-Car-on-Hydrogen-from-Aluminum-Soda-Cans-a/
A Friend of mine volunteers at ACCRC (Alameda county computer recycling center) and they modded a car to run off hydrogen. It doesn't take anything special, in fact they just used a tuna can to regulate it...
I know this isn't running off water, just disproving all of the claims that you cant burn hydrogen like you do gasoline.

I don't believe anyone made that claim. It is well established that you can run an ICE on hydrogen. What you can't do is run an ICE on water.

There are two points that absolutely prove that adding water to a typical ICE doesn't work.

1. If it worked automobile manufaturers, power plant operators etc. would already be doing it. Put away your "tin-foil hat" and think about it for a minute. Why on earth would anyone not use something so trivially easy to do as add water injection? "Big bad oil companies"<sup>TM</sup> don't have the power (political or economic) to block something like that.

2. The relationship between water (H<sub>2</sub>O) and hydrogen gas (H<sub>2</sub>) is exactly the same as the relationship between Octane (C<sub>8</sub>H<sub>18</sub>) and CO<sub>2</sub>. To claim that water can be burned (or converted into something that can be burned) is identical to proposing that you could make an ICE that runs on CO<sub>2</sub>. Water is fuel that has been burned. You can't run an engine on burned fuel. Adding burned fuel to an ICE can't improve the power output of the engine.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Thu May 15, 2008 5:37 pm

I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I think the attempt to use the world's FOOD products and resources as a significant source of energy for the masses has got to be one of the most dumbass ideas to come along in modern times


If you would have paid attention to this:
Leave it up to the people to make their own fuels.


You would have understood my point.

My Dad makes his own biodiesel. Prior to gasoline all cars ran off of ethanol(before the diesel engine). The infastructure can be made to support ethanol(or people can make their own).

And the food prices argument doesn't fly. Farm subsidies PAY farmers to NOT farm land. Another great swindle. The mash that comes off of ethanol production is better feed for animals than grains in raw. More efficient feed equals less of it to raise livestock. Which means lower prices for meat products. And since ethanol production uses plants usually reserved for industrial sugar applications or other wise un-edible plants, there is no threat to food products. America has plenty of land to raise both food and fuel.

The real argument against ethanol is how to produce it efficiently and without fossil fuels. Again I bring back to small scale production...community wide production. Quit thinking large scale. Nothing has ever started out at its very largest scale. Everything has to be built up.

All that being said, I'm all for drilling more. I see that as the most useful short term tide over.

Killjoy: Dead on bro!
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Unread postAuthor: benstern » Thu May 15, 2008 6:43 pm

goathunter wrote:The real argument against ethanol is how to produce it efficiently and without fossil fuels. Again I bring back to small scale production...community wide production.


I agree... on the the condition that the same system is also used as the community vodka distillery. (what did you think ethanol was?)
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Thu May 15, 2008 8:29 pm

Well I think I may just give it a try. There is no way I will buy the book though. What do guys think the worst could happen? If I dont like it or its not doing anything then I will take it out and use the electrolysis machine out and use it for something else.
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Unread postAuthor: Killjoy » Thu May 15, 2008 10:50 pm

I can't think of any short term damage that would be cause by testing this, so go for it.

Do try to understand that this site is not promoting a completely onboard electrolyisis fuel system. It is using a small amount of hydrogen to increase the intensity of gasoline, it is not a replacement for gasoline, and is not being advertized as such (despite the somewhat misleading name).


I understand that. But I still am suspicious of the actual claims by the site, especially since the site is not straight foreward about what is going on and is designed more like a cheap infomericial selling crap then a legitmate product that will actually help. Perhaps it does work, but the presentation makes it questionable.
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Thu May 15, 2008 11:14 pm

goathunter wrote:And the food prices argument doesn't fly. Farm subsidies PAY farmers to NOT farm land. Another great swindle.

That hasn't been the case since Regan Forked up our farm subsidies program... what subsides do now is this: If the selling price drops below the growing cost, the government pays the farmer the difference. The way it use to work is that they would loan them the money to keep it off the market, thus keeping the economy going, and grain prices at a reasonable level. Now, since they are encouraged to produce as much as they can, no matter what the demand for it is, they make massive amounts of corn. This insane surplus then of course drops the price, so the government has to pay the farmers MORE in subsidies the next growing season.
In addition, the only way that farmers can produce enough bushels per acre is to use massive amounts of fertilizers. Guess where all of the nitrogen from those fertilizers comes from? The air, in a process called nitrogen fixation. This is an insanely fuel consumptive process, which could arguably make the entire cycle less efficient to run off ethanol than gasoline.

The solution: Image
Bikes are the most efficient mode of transportation in existence to this day (they use 1/3 the energy of walking.)
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Thu May 15, 2008 11:59 pm

Ahh the good old bicycle. I know it sounds stupid but I rather walk then ride a bike.
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Fri May 16, 2008 12:13 am

Depends on the distance. You aren't about to see me biking the 1/2 mile to my friends house, it just takes too long to lock and unlock my bike, but when I am going more that a mile, I would bike any day. Besides, if you live in the city, it is faster to bike than drive. And you dont need to look for parking!
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Do not look back, and grieve over the past, for it is gone;
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Live life in the present, and make it so beautiful that it will be worth remembering.
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Fri May 16, 2008 12:43 am

i only got a 4 mile commute to work. so i am just looking for something to improve my cars mpg. i thought about an electric scooter.
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