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water for gas

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Is it a scam?

yes
12
80%
no
3
20%
 
Total votes : 15
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Unread postAuthor: SpudMonster » Fri May 16, 2008 1:54 am

goathunter wrote:
I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I think the attempt to use the world's FOOD products and resources as a significant source of energy for the masses has got to be one of the most dumbass ideas to come along in modern times


If you would have paid attention to this:
Leave it up to the people to make their own fuels.


You would have understood my point.

My Dad makes his own biodiesel. Prior to gasoline all cars ran off of ethanol(before the diesel engine). The infastructure can be made to support ethanol(or people can make their own).

And the food prices argument doesn't fly. Farm subsidies PAY farmers to NOT farm land. Another great swindle. The mash that comes off of ethanol production is better feed for animals than grains in raw. More efficient feed equals less of it to raise livestock. Which means lower prices for meat products. And since ethanol production uses plants usually reserved for industrial sugar applications or other wise un-edible plants, there is no threat to food products. America has plenty of land to raise both food and fuel.

The real argument against ethanol is how to produce it efficiently and without fossil fuels. Again I bring back to small scale production...community wide production. Quit thinking large scale. Nothing has ever started out at its very largest scale. Everything has to be built up.

All that being said, I'm all for drilling more. I see that as the most useful short term tide over.

Killjoy: Dead on bro!



"Prior to gasoline all cars ran off of ethanol(before the diesel engine)."
Uhh... No. Gasoline, both in form and name, predates the invention of the internal combustion engine by several decades. The earliest internal combustion engines (Barsanti/Matteucci, Lenoir, Otto-Langen free piston, Silent Otto) all ran on assorted mixes of gases, usually "illuminating gas", which is mainly hydrogen.

Ethanol is a boondoggle. The production and growing are terrible. I don't give a flying rusty fork about the food supply argument because like you said, it's not really true for the most part. However, almost all farm tractors nowadays are not Otto cycle, they are Diesel. Also, this increased farming means more fertilizers have to be used. What makes those? Petroleum or natural gas. Not ethanol.

Besides, small scale farming is even worse than large-scale in terms of cost. All across industries, farming included, it is cheaper to make a lot of stuff in huge batches than it is in one-at-a-time. Besides, ethanol is most likely to be consumed in the cities. But crops can't be grown in cities in the quantities we would need them to fuel the U.S. vehicle fleet. Where is enough space? The country, where very few live (and subsequently, very few make).

Plus, ethanol is crap for fuel. It's awful. It has less BTUs per gallon than gasoline and it's hydrophilic as all hell, so it goes stale in a matter of weeks. Stale fuel is not good for much is it? It simply does not keep.

Not that I'm for increased drilling either, we're just deluding ourselves if we think that we're actually going to work towards mainstreaming alternative energy supplies so long as we have ANY oil we're extracting. Of course we're not going to stop drilling until we are completely out, since we already have the infrastructure all set up for the use of petroleum and it would be a fortune to switch.

Basically, we're gonna run out of oil someday, we're fucked, there's nothing we can do to change it. And ethanol is not the answer either.
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Unread postAuthor: Killjoy » Fri May 16, 2008 2:59 am

Heres my theory. The US knows it has plenty of oil in Alaska, lots in Texas still, and massive amounts of natural gas off the eastern coast, so its set. The plan though is to use up everyone else's oil (and other natural fuel) supplies, once they're depleted, the US will start using its own, and then the rest of the world will have to figure out what to do on they're own.

In the mean time though China will attack Russia for its natural resources, we have a nuclear war, and the US still turns to its own resources, so it all works out, and the over population issue gets kicked down a notch.

Seriously though, SpudMonster is right. Oil is so intertwined into the world's societies that its basically the blood in the veins. Ethanol is out, hybrid cars do more damage to the environment in the long run, and hydrogen fuel is to much of a pain. Most of us will be dead by the time any "real" problems arise with lack of oil, so I'm not worried.

On topic though, this hydrolysis doodad actually looks quite adaptable to spud gun use, I'm thinking of trying it too.
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Unread postAuthor: Lentamentalisk » Fri May 16, 2008 7:19 pm

@ Jon_89
http://blag.xkcd.com/
about 1/3 of the way down re: electric scateboards
or, like I posted before, the best way invented so far:
Image
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Fri May 16, 2008 8:57 pm

Lets say this does work. Will this set up work? http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/how-to-make-an-electrolysis-machine-v-2-t11635.html. i would use plates and a slighty larger storage unit.
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Fri May 16, 2008 11:25 pm

I still think they have the whole fuel problem bass ackwards- they're trying to find alternatives to gasoline when cars can still be made much more efficient than they are now by decreasing the weight.

And as for the electrolysis machine, something still has me slightly confused: The web site says it uses HHO, which makes sense because engines are designed to use almost all oxygen available. However, an electrolysis machine produces H2 and O2...is that the same as HHO, since it produces H2 at twice the rate as O2? Wtf?
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Unread postAuthor: benstern » Sat May 17, 2008 1:14 am

Yes it is the same. Like I said, marketing mumbo-jumbo that is not accurate to science.
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Sun May 18, 2008 7:38 pm

In reading more about this everyday I have read that I would need an Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer. Does anybody know where I could get the schematics for these without spending $40?
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Unread postAuthor: daxspudder » Sun May 18, 2008 8:01 pm

Again with my profession as a submariner i am familiar with electrolysis machines, as we use a electrolytic oxygen generator. Electrolysis generates O2 and H2, but twice as much H2, this is because of the lithium-super-oxide used, there are of course other metals that can be used that just produce H2 and O, but are far less efficient and require more power. The change in O to O2 is just part of the chemical reaction created when current is applied. :o
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Sun May 18, 2008 8:31 pm

This is entirely plausiable, motors arn't very effeciant, so cumbustion MIGHT give a added advantage, but the point remains that that electricity is being made somewhere, by nuclear or coal. Gasoline just does it in your car instead of someplace else.
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Sun May 18, 2008 9:06 pm

Yeah rp181 I agree with you thay it is plausiable that is why I am willing to try it out. What I am still trying to figure out are the o2 sensors and what the best setup would be.
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Sun May 18, 2008 9:52 pm

http://eco-living.net/writings/transport/effengine.html i agree with the bike idea =)

Jon, just get a gokart and try it.
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Tue May 20, 2008 9:58 pm

Do you guys know of any circuits that I could make so I could control the amperage to the electrodes. Also what kind of circuit do I need to take 12 volts down to 2 volts? (recommended voltage for electrolysis to occur)
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Tue May 20, 2008 10:04 pm

Amperage is a function of voltage and resistance, you can limit it, but not control it per se. Unless you have a constant current supply, which I doubt you do (and then voltage will be variable, and that would suck).

As for reducing it, there are a number of ICs for DC-DC step down. You could also make a divider circuit out of resistors assuming the resistance between your electrodes is bigger than the resistance of your resistors.

Edit: I've been thinking, and I think for maximum efficiency, a switching regulator would be your best bet. Anything else is wasting good power.
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Last edited by TurboSuper on Wed May 21, 2008 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Tue May 20, 2008 10:07 pm

use as low voltage as possiable, about 3 Volts. To step down, use a transformer or buck converter. You dont need to control amperage. Use ohms law: current draw= voltage/resistance (ohms). For example:
3V supply,3 ohms resistance, that will draw 1 A from the 3v power supply.

Use stainless 316 plate electrodes on a solution of deionized and purified water and sudium or potassium hydroxide.
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Unread postAuthor: jon_89 » Fri May 23, 2008 1:02 am

Alright here is my setup. I will have a 2 inch tee with male plugs on all three sides. For my electrodes I will use .25 inch bolts with several 1.5 inch washers on them. On the top of the tee will be were the gas will exit. I will make the system tomorrow and probably hook it up to my car Saturday. I will let you guys know what happens.
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