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We have no reference!!!

Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:26 am

immagine if you scaled the entire universe to 10x its current size, and all its laws in accordance to that scale. Noone would know.
likewise, if you shrank everything, and reduced the strength of the natural laws in accordance, noone would know.

How do we know how large or small we are? With no reference to compare the universe to, are we not infinately large and infinately small at the same time?

If energy is the only thing in the universe that cannot be created nor destroyed, and the manifestation of energy as matter requires the existence of space and time, both of which we know had a beginning, then God must be energy.

Energy and matter comprise all that is, therefore it is omnipresent and infinate, a characteristic of God.
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Unread postAuthor: Gippeto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:36 am

What ever your smoking, ...got any to spare? :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:45 am

The universe is indeed expanding as we speak.
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:45 am

To add to what you said:

There is a theory that our soalrsystem is only a single atom in another universe, that our planets are infact electrons and that our sun is made of protons, neutrons and 34 other particals. the theory continues to say that the solar sytems together make up a bit of matter in another universe. The theory also says that all atoms in our universe are infact solar systems in another universe and so on and so on.

Oh and you talked abou the beginning...Well as a matter of fact there is a fairly big chance we are not the first, nor that last universe that existed. There are several theories as to how our universe will end( big bounce, big chill or big squeeze theory) Many of them would result in the posibility of having yet another big bang and to have the whole universe start over until it ends again with another begining.

Oh and moonbogg you made a mistake: Energy can be made and distroyed and acctually the making of energy is the supplyer of energy throughout the universe. In a nuclear fission or fusion energy is created and that is exactly how stars(our sun included) make energy...Rather large mistake i am afraid...

while discusing theoretical things i recomend you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvgwR9ERCBo I think you might enjoy this :D
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:45 am

I want some of what he's on. The only way
to tell is relativity, as the speed of light is the only thing that is constant.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:57 am

Scientists now know that matter can be made into energy through processes like nuclear fission and nuclear fusion. The law of conservation of energy has therefore been extended to become the Law of conservation of matter and energy.Adding salt to water will make hydro-power move faster.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. EVER

The speed of light is currently theorized as no longer being constant. For instance, the big bang would have expanded much faster than the speed of light. The laws break down at extreme conditions.
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:05 am

I had to laugh when i saw you used the simple english wikipedia...But yes energy can be created in a nuclear reactor by fission and fussion. When you have two atoms of any kind they do not have energy besides maybe chemical potential but take hellium, a noble gas, un reactive to the most part, can still be fussioned together with another hellium atom to realease HUGE amounts of energy and a berillium atom. The energy is created isn't it? you will argue now
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Last edited by john bunsenburner on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:10 am

john bunsenburner wrote:I had to laugh when i saw you used the simple english wikipedia...But yes energy can be created in a nuclear reactor by fission and fussion. When you have two atoms of any kind they do not have energy besides maybe chemical potentual(sp?) but take hellium, a noble gas, un reactive to the most part, can still be fussioned together with another hellium atom to realease HUGE amounts of energy and a berillium atom. The energy is created isn't it? you will argue now


Matter is a manifestation of energy. It can be converted back to energy and vise versa. Read the law. If you have other ideas site your sources here.
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:20 am

Ok you are sayign that if i fuse two helium atoms and get 1 joule(ita unrealistic but for the sake of explaining must be ok) it would take me 1joule of energy to split these two atoms correct? But what if i made an instable isotpe of berilium, cant i split that up again to get two hellium atoms(lets say instable ones) and energy? Its just a thought and i cannot wait to be proven wrong but i think i still have a point.

Oh and talking about sources:
Moonbogg wrote:...then God must be energy.

Energy and matter comprise all that is, therefore it is omnipresent and infinate, a characteristic of God.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:34 am

It sounds like your talking about radioactive decay since you mentioned isotopes. Decay is different than matter conversion to energy. I'm no expert and don't undersntand what your talking about in your last post. All I know is there is an agreed upon law (not here however) of the conservation of matter and energy.
It simply means that the universe was created with a finite ammount of energy, and all energy that is present in the universe, no matter the form, cannot be removed from the universe, and any energy that is not in the universe cannot be added to the universe.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:01 am

Its true what you say, there is a limited amount of energy, and some of this energy has become matter; or reverse.
The trick on nuclear fusion/fission/decay is that even if no protrons,neutrons,electrons or charge is lost, the weight of the resulting product is NOT equal to the atoms you started with. Even though this is just a few %, or even less then that, the amount of energy is HUGE.
The difference of mass determines how much energy is created/lost: E=mc^2
Converting just a few grams of matter into energy gives off more energy then a nuclear bomb.
Fact is, that a nuclear bomb loses some mass on detonation, and thats where all that energy comes from.



Note that matter+antimatter = energy, so if one is creating matter out of energy, this would also create antimatter right?
And the reason why antimatter contains so much energy is that it completely converts to energy if it annihilates with matter.

Quoting Ragnarok:
"Yes, it's a plan I have. Develop enough anti-Rickrolls and then bring them together with normal Rickrolls, causing both to disappear and release a huge amount of energy." :lol:

But we indeed do not have any reference, though scaling up the whole universe a factor 10 would cause some problems if you asked me. ;)
I dont know if you are familiar with laws of scaling, but some things do not go well when scaling. For example: you have a boat, it has a sail of 1 square meter and a volume of 1 cubic meter. The relation between the surface of the sail and the weight (density*volume) determines how fast it can go.
When you scale up your boat by a factor 2, look what happens:
The surface of the sail scales up by 4, while the weight of the boat becomes 8 times as big. Your boat goes twice as slow!
Now we were not talking about model boats, but I wanted to illustrate that not everything can be scaled just like that.

EDIT
If god is energy, and matter is made out of energy, then how much does god weigh? :P
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:29 am

What if you traelled to a parallel universe and took mater from there to brin it ito your own universe to then convert it into energy, i know its gettign a little sci fi but if we are spekulationg like this why not bring in wierd messed up things, any way, if you would do that wouldnt you add energy to your universe?

P.s. how about having a discussion in the chat room about this, im there :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:18 am

john bunsenburner wrote:What if you traelled to a parallel universe and took mater from there to brin it ito your own universe to then convert it into energy, i know its gettign a little sci fi but if we are spekulationg like this why not bring in wierd messed up things, any way, if you would do that wouldnt you add energy to your universe?

P.s. how about having a discussion in the chat room about this, im there :wink:


If you could do that then certainly it makes sense that you could add energy. But would that energy have been created? It already would have existed elsewhere as matter. Where is this chat room?

to psycix about the energy thing..
I see what your saying. if you did that with the fission or whatever it is, and a massive amount of energy was released, it is infact released from the forces holding these atoms together and it is not created. isn't it ridiculous how hard it seems to truly create energy?
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:41 am

I had to laugh at that one
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:47 am

I love it how people wikipedia things, then say what they read and do not cite it, just pretend they come up with it. Makes me giggle sometimes or wonder, hey, haven't I read/written that before? (puzzled).

Moon, that can be correct under some circumstances. "extreme circumstances" is a broad term. Consider that in basics of science you're taught that liquids and solids don't compress and hold the same volume, but gasses don't. Of course if you apply a stupidly massive amount of force to them they may compress, but it's fair enough to say that they don't. Similar case with relativity.

By the way, for those who don't understand relativity:
As something's speed increases, it will get heavier (try to think before you say "liek when dey you drive r carz thy don gart hevazir ddojy"). The best way to prevent this from happening is by having a mass of zero or a minuscule mass. Don't think of it as increasing, think of it as multiplication with an index (to the power of).
If something is traveling faster it's relative time is slower until 0 at the speed of light. No, that doesn't stop you from getting older.
They also get shorter as they travel faster et cetera, but the speed of light stays the same.
^ I think I read a really basic explanation of that in a book when I was like 8 or so, was Karl I think.
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