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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:12 pm

MrCrowley wrote:What happened to the person who sustained 'major non-life threatening injuries' as described in the News article SB15 linked


I talked to DYI a few weeks after the incident happened, and I believe he mentioned that the moron had the device he constructed from disassembled commercial fireworks go off in his hand, causing some minor burns. 'Major non-life threatening injuries' is media BS.
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Last edited by SpudBlaster15 on Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:13 pm

D_Hall:
At the very least you can twist this to put it on your CV later down the line if you're applying for a related job (military science and the like)

Thanks, ile research it some more.
for the fuel and oxidizer, that would include rocket candy, which is immensely popular.
I must say, using clay as the plugs was not very smart. Pulls that cheap ghetto look. I assume it was for moisture?
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:23 pm

SpudBlaster15 wrote:Just a nitpick, but DYI and myself don't live in the USA.
Sorry, my bad. When you were talking about "our country" I assumed you were setting yourself aside from DYI, not setting yourself next to him. From there I assumed USA since most folks around here are from the US.

He made a few mistakes, but that doesn't make him "beyond stupid". DYI is an intelligent person, and most adults are 100x more mistake-prone and idiotic than he is at his worst.

I'm not talking about his laboratory practices. I'm talking about his risk/reward calculations. He risks his entire future for what... bragging rights on a spud gun forum?

Why is that beyond comprehension? He worked safely and performed his tests away from residential areas. If it weren't for a couple of scumbags at school, he would be fine.

But he isn't fine. And "a couple scumbags at school" are totally forseeable. Kids talk. That's their nature. His parents should have anticipated that the wrong person would find out. They didn't. Their judgement of his laboratory practices may have been OK, but just as his judgement of the grand scheme was faulty, so too was their's. The difference is that his lack of judgement can be blamed on youth. Their's? I got nuthin' to defend them.


Under the right circumstances, yes. A charge of that size in a cardboard casing would need to be held directly in front of the face to have a decent chance of killing you.

That is so patently wrong all capital letters wouldn't do it justice.

7 grams of HE totally unconfined held in your hand is enough to take your fracking arm off at the elbow (probably higher, but I'm *SURE* you'd lose everything below the elbow). I've yet to meet even one person who appreciates the power of HE until they actually see it in action. At the office we routinely have to give demonstrations to newbs to get it into their head just how little HE it takes to kill. We lecture them for a week and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Then we take them out and show them what even one itty bitty blasting cap will do and they're like, "HOLY FRAKKING CRAP!"

Put it this way: A LARGE blasting cap has about 1 gram but just about any blasting cap will leave you with no hand should you be holding it at the wrong moment.
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:34 pm

rp181 wrote:Thanks, ile research it some more.
for the fuel and oxidizer, that would include rocket candy, which is immensely popular.


When you start talking about something like candy propellant, you're no longer talking about something that has an oxidizer and a fuel at the molecular level. Yes, it has both, but it is a non-homogeneous mixture. Chunks of oxidizer in a fuel matrix. That's NOT the same thing as both on a molecular level.

That said... When you start getting into such mixtures all bets are off. Obviously ANFO is considered an explosive. But APCP is not (although it USED to be until the ATF lost a lawsuit earlier this year). The point being that you're now in a gray area. Best to check with the local ATF office BEFORE you start messing around.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:46 pm

D_Hall wrote:
Under the right circumstances, yes. A charge of that size in a cardboard casing would need to be held directly in front of the face to have a decent chance of killing you.


That is so patently wrong all capital letters wouldn't do it justice.


The simple proof is that a typical HE 20mm cannon shell contains less than half of that in terms of filling, and I've seen the effects of one going off unfired, NOT something you want to be close to.
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Unread postAuthor: SEAKING9006 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:50 pm

Anything involving the letters FCC, ATF, and FBI gets my nerves boiling. I know they're just doing their jobs, but if they'd just screw their damn heads on straight....
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:54 pm

D_Hall wrote:I'm not talking about his laboratory practices. I'm talking about his risk/reward calculations. He risks his entire future for what... bragging rights on a spud gun forum?


Ah, I didn't realize that your understanding of DYI's motivations was that far out in left field. From talking to him for a couple years, I've come to know that "bragging rights on a spud gun forum" mean little to him. His interests are in the pursuit of knowledge, and in all likelihood, that will factor significantly into the future he intends to pursue.

But he isn't fine. And "a couple scumbags at school" are totally forseeable. Kids talk. That's their nature. His parents should have anticipated that the wrong person would find out. They didn't. Their judgement of his laboratory practices may have been OK, but just as his judgement of the grand scheme was faulty, so too was their's. The difference is that his lack of judgement can be blamed on youth. Their's? I got nuthin' to defend them.


How could his parents have anticipated how much the relatively minor issue would be blown out of proportion by the police and media? Based on written law, the quantities he was storing deserved a slap on the wrist at most. His parents knew that he was working with small quantities, and they rightfully trusted him with it. The blame deserves to be placed on the cops, media, and so called 'explosives experts', who turned a few grams of HE material into 'hundreds of pipe bombs, grenades, and land mines'.

That is so patently wrong all capital letters wouldn't do it justice.

7 grams of HE totally unconfined held in your hand is enough to take your fracking arm off at the elbow. I've yet to meet even one person who appreciates the power of HE until they actually see it in action. At the office we routinely have to give demonstrations to newbs to get it into their head just how little HE it takes to kill. We lecture them for a week and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Then we take them out and show them what even one itty bitty blasting cap will do and they're like, "HOLY FRAKKING CRAP!"

Put it this way: A LARGE blasting cap has about 1 gram in it and if it goes off in your hand... You no longer have a hand.


You could say that I have been the orchestrator of many such 'demonstrations' in the past, and I firmly believe that 7 grams of the HMTD/TATP he was storing is sufficient to kill only under certain circumstances. Unconfined in your hand, it may remove several fingers, but my own tests prove that such quantities will not even come close to removing an arm at the elbow.

Blasting caps are a different story. They contain explosive compositions that generate far more gas per mass unit than organic peroxides, but may I remind you that he wasn't working with commercial caps...
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:56 pm

SEAKING9006 wrote:Anything involving the letters FCC, ATF, and FBI gets my nerves boiling. I know they're just doing their jobs, but if they'd just screw their damn heads on straight....

Ya know, I've dealt with all three of those agencies. What I've found is that they're very helpful and will answer all sorts of questions calmly and courteously... IF you call them and ask questions IN ADVANCE of any little activities you may have in mind. Really, answering questions is part of their job and they don't mind doing it.

Involve them early in the process and you'll avoid a LOT of headaches down the road.
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:42 am

SpudBlaster15 wrote:His interests are in the pursuit of knowledge, and in all likelihood, that will factor significantly into the future he intends to pursue.

Admittedly things may be different in Canada, but in the US he has effectively elliminated any chance he had to work in the energetics industry. Yeah, that's the way to pursue that goal!

How could his parents have anticipated how much the relatively minor issue would be blown out of proportion by the police and media?

Are you serious? Are you really that naive? Find me ONE example of somebody caught with unlicensed HE in a home environment wherein the powers that be (media, cops, etc) DIDN'T freak out. I've never heard of such a case. They ALWAYS freak out. Right or wrong, it's 100% predictable. The powers that be may over react, but they do so RELIABLY. There should have been zero surprises here for anybody who reads the papers on anything that resembles a regular basis.

You could say that I have been the orchestrator of many such 'demonstrations' in the past, and I firmly believe that 7 grams of the HMTD/TATP he was storing is sufficient to kill only under certain circumstances.

I'll point out that TATP has a TNT equivalence of approximately 0.7-0.8. Beyond that, I'll agree to disagree.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:59 am

D_Hall wrote:Admittedly things may be different in Canada, but in the US he has effectively elliminated any chance he had to work in the energetics industry. Yeah, that's the way to pursue that goal!


How exactly would you have suggested he pursue that goal then? How could he know that he even wanted to pursue a career in the field of energetic materials if he could not experience first hand what it's like to live such a life? As far as I'm concerned, his decision to experiment and his risk/reward calculations were completely logical. The execution was somewhat flawed, but that's another matter entirely.

Are you serious? Are you really that naive? Find me ONE example of somebody caught with unlicensed HE in a home environment wherein the powers that be (media, cops, etc) DIDN'T freak out. I've never heard of such a case. They ALWAYS freak out. Right or wrong, it's 100% predictable. The powers that be may over react, but they do so RELIABLY. There should have been zero surprises here for anybody who reads the papers on anything that resembles a regular basis.


Yes, they ALWAYS freak out, blow things out of proportion, blatantly lie, etc, etc. You and I both know this. But does the average parental unit? No. They think the cops are actually there to protect and serve, the media to report the News accurately, etc. Just like 90% of the world, they have these misconceptions. Picture yourself as the parents. When your highly intelligent son who has been building and operating relatively large yet legal projectile launchers for over a year comes to you and asks if it will be alright to start testing quantities of HEs that contain a mere fraction of the energy he's used to working with, you as an average parent (Not a ME who tests explosives for a living) say no? I certainly wouldn't. Whether you believe that is right or not, the decision was certainly not devoid of all logic as you imply it to be.

I'll point out that TATP has a TNT equivalence of approximately 0.7-0.8. Beyond that, I'll agree to disagree.


Agreeing to disagree; I don't want to steer this thread in the direction of explosives discussion, since that would likely lead to it being locked.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:38 am

Dude, DYI... You had several people around here thinking you were a dead man. I myself PM'd and emailed you personally to check on you with no response. You apparently confided in Spudblaster but his explanation set no one's mind at ease....seemed to confuse your situation if anything...we were berated for even bringing you up in conversation.

I figured this very thing happened to you based on your last few posts from last year. I understand you feeling the need to censor yourself from the site for a while but a slightly more clear explanation would seemingly have been in order.

If your case is still pending, why did you finally break silence here?
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:17 am

starman wrote:You apparently confided in Spudblaster but his explanation set no one's mind at ease....seemed to confuse your situation if anything...we were berated for even bringing you up in conversation.


I was one of a few people who were aware of his situation. The explanation I eluded to was indeed confusing and lacking in details, but DYI had trusted me with the information, and I wasn't about to publicly release it.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:22 am

SpudBlaster15 wrote:Here's one, if you can stomach the sheer media stupidity. I love how the tubes clearly read "0.6g", yet the "explosives experts" claimed that there was enough material to 'blow up the town'. I don't know how these people manage to get their jobs...

Lol, as if he is distributing explosives on high school.
"Trade ya lunch for a handgrenade?"

Police always assumes that all explosives are meant to do harm to someone, they do not understand synthesizing for fun and personal entertainment.

D_Hall wrote:Ya know, I've dealt with all three of those agencies. What I've found is that they're very helpful and will answer all sorts of questions calmly and courteously... IF you call them and ask questions IN ADVANCE of any little activities you may have in mind. Really, answering questions is part of their job and they don't mind doing it.

Yeah, if you are working for a company that blows stuff up.
If I would call em "Hey, can I make HE?"
I'd probably receive a big NO, followed by search warrant.
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Unread postAuthor: Biopyro » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:37 am

When you start talking about something like candy propellant, you're no longer talking about something that has an oxidizer and a fuel at the molecular level.

Unless you work for the media, in which case it's a high explosive.

Yeah, if you are working for a company that blows stuff up.
If I would call em "Hey, can I make HE?"
I'd probably receive a big NO, followed by search warrant.


I dunno, perhaps for the larger agencies this would hold true, but most likely if you phoned your local police department and said "I'm doing some research, please ignore reports of explosions in my area" it would definitely be better than them finding out second hand, assuming you're doing it somewhere sensible.
Of course they could take it the wrong way and go mad, but I've found it's very much down to the individual officer. They aren't all bad, but get them thinking with a bit of a mob mentality together and it's a different story.

Admittedly things may be different in Canada, but in the US he has effectively elliminated any chance he had to work in the energetics industry. Yeah, that's the way to pursue that goal!

You say that, but take cybercriminals. Occasionally the attention brought to them will warrant a good criminal record, but also a job directly.

IMHO, is that his parents (I gather) knew what he was messing with and approved? ... Parents are supposed to provide boundaries and such to help protect kids from themselves.


Lots of members here are minors and their parents "approve" in one way or another, some get involved, the best approach IMO, and others take a more laissez-faire approach. However it happens, they are allowing their children to learn from direct experience, instead of making them live in a bubble. I hate how our modern society is so focussed on eliminating risk, and the price seems to be a homogeneous population of zombies, having their kids watch reality TV instead of letting them go out and ride a bike, in case they get hurt.
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Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:20 am

SpudBlaster15 wrote:How exactly would you have suggested he pursue that goal then?

The "normal" way?

Hint: There are colleges that actually teach this stuff. Probably the most respected of which is New Mexico Tech. Gee, I just followed that link and wow... The very first story on their home page is "Two Students Noted For Explosives Research." Suffice to say that my employer recruits NMT grads heavily.

True, that means waiting a couple years before playing with high order toys but given the mess DYI is in, I'm guessing in hindsight he wouldn't have minded.

Picture yourself as the parents. When your highly intelligent son who has been building and operating relatively large yet legal projectile launchers for over a year comes to you and asks if it will be alright to start testing quantities of HEs that contain a mere fraction of the energy he's used to working with, you as an average parent (Not a ME who tests explosives for a living) say no?

I would say that the vast majority of parents would say no. Look around this website. See how many kids don't get to play with combustions because their parents are worried about explosions - from fuels that most houses have lying around 24/7/365? And now you want me to believe that most parents would be "OK" with the kid synthesizing detonable materials? I don't buy it for a moment.

Whether you believe that is right or not, the decision was certainly not devoid of all logic as you imply it to be.

I didn't say it was devoid of logic. I said it was stupid and naive. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.
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