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Rant on nerf modding

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Unread postAuthor: Gippeto » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:04 am

:D

My favorite one though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaB40TLQE8M
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Unread postAuthor: MindWarrior » Sun May 30, 2010 12:52 am

I am a nerfer. Initially I did feel really pissed off at what you guys say about our hobby, but Instead of flaming, I'm going to give my argument.
Accusation/Question: Why do people single their multi-shot blasters?
Many reasons.
1. Many of those clip fed springers have many drawbacks. One is range, those plastic breeches are horribly inefficient and making new brass ones are usually unavailable to new modders. The second is ranges, by simply adding a barrel to replace that breech; you can achieve some decent ranges. Now don't forget, many of us don't just slap a CPVC barrel on it and call it a day. Springs are added, reinforcements are made, and that’s just the start of it. Many of use don't just single our guns anymore, that was dead for a while, What we do is adding couplers instead of directly adding CPVC barrels, makes the reloading faster. Alas, many of us have progressed from that, we use new clip systems, the RSCB or the Hopper clip for example, they're simple, cheap and effective for our nerf wars.

Accusation/Question: Nerf is full of little, dumb kids.
That is correct, no doubt about it. Nerf is full of ten year olds on youtube and instructibles, some of the worst examples of our modding community. But you forget about the few of us that are more than that, much more. Nerf modding actually has Engineers that actively mod and help in the forums. There are smart kids, tweens and teenagers that progress the hobby, and in good sizable numbers too. Don't forget, Nerf itself attracts a much younger audience who has seen some of the awesome works our community has made. They see that their nitefinders and mavericks can do much, much more. In fact, forums like Nerfhaven have strict administrators, they don’t take too much crap from people you see in instructibles and youtube.

Accusation/Question: Nerf does not allow completely homemade pneumatic guns.
Untrue, we do allow them. Just not in our nerf wars. Why? Simple, just look at your air cannons, THAT’S why. We don't care if you can regulate the PSI. There’s always that douche bag that doesn't, and since we already get enough heat by shooting each other in public with toy guns (yes, cops do get called because we play with colorful pieces of plastic), we don't want to risk it.

Accusation/Question: You guys use stupid ways to mod your nerf toys.
Yes we use hot glue, and we use e-tape, but so what? Hot glue is a great adhesive, it’s easy to apply and it’s pretty strong. E-tape has its uses, just like any other hardware item. For the most part, new nerf modders have had very little experiences with tools other than a screwdriver and a saw. Do you really expect us to be doing some advance stuff with knowledge to start with? Your forum attracts a different group of people; some of you are actually willing to learn a few things before diving into advance crap. Nerf modifications don’t require too many resources either. The base of your pneumatic air gun is already there, we’re just tweaking with it.

Accusation/Question: Nerf guns, no matter how modded cannot compare to the awesomeness of our pneumatic cannons.
So what? Our goals in nerf modding are not just making the projectile fly farther and faster. 99.9% of the modifications and homemades on Nerfhaven, Nerfhq,Nerf Revolution and other nerf forums are designed around the assumption that they’re going to be used to shoot other people, not trees and sheet metal. One of your main rules on this site is to not even MENTION shooting other people. That’s how different our goals are. That’s why we use foam darts with safe tips, employ weight regulations on our darts during wars, why we flame people for putting tacks on their darts.

Accusation/Question: Nerf is stupid and pointless compared to paintball/airsoft
Opinion based, that’s what I call it. Nerf is not stupid, its just silly. We all know how nerdy it is to shoot people with toy guns, but we just enjoy doing it. Nerf compared to paint ball and airsoft with its range and ROF difference emplys a different style of play. Theres a lot more running, dodging and athleticism, you need both brains and athleticism to be good in any nerf war. Thats why we ban many of your airgun designs at wars, they take the fun out of the hobby. Rapid fire, homemade pneumatic guns, even under the range limit, can quickly turn the game into airsoft, paintball like playing, bunkering down behind cover, taking potshots which sounds fun to some, but to me and many others, just sound stupid.

Closing notes:
I can say more, but I feel that I’ve made my point. I’m not trying to insult any of you here. Spudfiles is an awesome site, but its goals are different. I just wanted to post a nerfers opinion on our hobby and hopefully clear a few things about us.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sun May 30, 2010 1:50 am

Have you played Nerf Arena Blast? It's a Nerf version of Unreal. Much brighter and loads of fun in LAN play.
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Unread postAuthor: MindWarrior » Sun May 30, 2010 1:51 am

Heard of it, never have unfortunately.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun May 30, 2010 4:43 am

MindWarrior wrote:Accusation/Question: Why do people single their multi-shot blasters?
Many reasons.

Actually, having read your answer, I think you're missing the point of this question somewhat. (Also, I'm not really going to accept "Many reasons" when there are only two listed - and they're "range" and "ranges")

The question is more "why buy a multi-shot blaster, the point of which is to have more than one shot, when the only intention is to convert it to a single shot?"

I'm not much of a nerf guy myself, but I know there are enough single shot blasters out there. If you think that range is important and are prepared to have only a single shot in return, logically you would simply modify one of those up instead.
If you want more than one shot, then that would be the logical time to buy a multi-shot.

That's the point being made. It's like buying a Corvette and then trying to make it do the job of a Hummer, instead of just buying a Hummer in the first place.

Nerf modding actually has Engineers that actively mod and help in the forums

That doesn't really assuage any of the points made. Most of us have seen the lovely work of people like Boltsniper - but that's pretty irrelevant when the point is that many nerf modders make rather amateurish and counter-productive modifications.

Saying "not everyone does" doesn't make the pretty common cases where it does happen go away.

Untrue, we do allow [completely homemade pneumatic guns]. Just not in our nerf wars. Why? Simple, just look at your air cannons, THAT’S why.

Yes, there are many air cannons on this site that could quite easily kill you, but those are nowhere close in design to a pneumatic nerf-gun intended for nerf wars.

We don't care if you can regulate the PSI. There’s always that douche bag that doesn't.

Now that's just silly. It's perfectly possible to build launchers that utilise permitted techniques that could cause injury.

It's also unfair to automatically rule out something on the basis that someone could be a dick with it. That kind of mindset leads to restrictive laws (most notably, firearms law).

Your forum attracts a different group of people; some of you are actually willing to learn a few things before diving into advance crap.

Um, I think you may have actually been counter-productive to your point here. What you've just said is basically an admission that Nerf modders are less likely to have learnt the basic skills - and that was part of the initial rant, that the results of Nerf modding were often amateurish.

There may be a reason why its amateurish, but again, it doesn't get rid of the point made.

99.9% of the modifications and homemades on nerf forums are designed around the assumption that they’re going to be used to shoot other people. One of your main rules on this site is to not even MENTION shooting other people.

Not quite. It is perfectly acceptable to discuss shooting people provided it is the legitimate use of... well, paintball, airsoft or nerf guns, basically. If said launcher was designed to be safely used to shoot others, then discussing that is perfectly acceptable. A moderator will only block a discussion of shooting people if actually carrying it out could/would endanger life.

This site actually encompasses a very wide range range of interests - including people who make nerf guns. The ban on discussion is because the site does not want to be seen to advocate actually shooting people with transonic beer can or whatever.

Unfortunately, some prats think that it's funny to shoot their mate with a high velocity potato, and then they get injured, go to hospital, get in the news, the media come looking for information... and as it's quite easy to run across this site if looking for information on spudguns, you can imagine why we try and minimise association with that kind of stupidity.

That's why we ban many of your airgun designs at wars, they take the fun out of the hobby.

So, "rapid fire nerf guns are bad"? Could I get your opinion on things like the Vulcan, Raider or other things like that then? Because those better most of the rates of fire that the pneumatic designs are made for, but I'm assuming those don't actually breach any rules.

~~~~~

Now, I'm perfectly prepared to see you follow your hobby, and I recognise that the average age of Nerf modders will be younger than the average spudgunner - but I'm more often frustrated by some of what I see on the rare occasions I browse Nerf forums than impressed.

Perhaps I'm just holding people to too high a standard, but my having to change my standards for something seem acceptable is not exactly ideal.

And yes, I know there's some crap on Spudfiles too.
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Unread postAuthor: btrettel » Sun May 30, 2010 8:39 am

MindWarrior, I joined the NIC in 2003 about 6 years earlier than you did. I've been around for a while and I'm still reasonably active. Any criticisms I made are valid.

Frankly, the NIC stinks. The quality of work is low. There's a general lack of maturity. And there's far too much negativity and drama, especially on IRC. I'm not holding my breath waiting for improvements.

Nerf modding actually has Engineers that actively mod and help in the forums.


There are a few folks with engineering degrees and some others working on engineering degrees. But by large even these people don't engineer Nerf guns. The larger point, as Ragnarok mentioned, is that in general the quality of work there is low.

Also, when I start a discussion on engineering Nerf guns I almost always get posts like "I'm still not sold on how this is necessary to enjoy the hobby. At all." As far as I'm concerned, the NIC is in general anti-engineering.

Accusation/Question: Nerf does not allow completely homemade pneumatic guns.
Untrue, we do allow them. Just not in our nerf wars. Why? Simple, just look at your air cannons, THAT’S why. We don't care if you can regulate the PSI. There’s always that douche bag that doesn't, and since we already get enough heat by shooting each other in public with toy guns (yes, cops do get called because we play with colorful pieces of plastic), we don't want to risk it.


More anti-pneumatic bullshit. Ragnarok summarizes my opinions well.

MindWarrior, this sort of attitude is bad for the Nerf hobby. I'm a big fan of pneumatics and I work hard to make them safe. No criticism of pneumatics I've heard holds true for my blasters, yet I'm still told they're too dangerous for wars, despite the fact that I can demonstrate that there is nothing unsafe or unfun about my guns.

Thankfully, some people are starting to see the light and won't ban anything outright. They're starting to realize that "homemade air gun" bans avoid the actual problem: dangerous guns.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun May 30, 2010 11:57 am

btrettel wrote:Also, when I start a discussion on engineering Nerf guns I almost always get posts like "I'm still not sold on how this is necessary to enjoy the hobby. At all." As far as I'm concerned, the NIC is in general anti-engineering.

While that point is admittedly true - it is not necessary to do such a thing to enjoy the hobby - it is also however untrue to say that no-one will enjoy doing such a thing as a part of the hobby. The only person who can definitively say whether someone enjoys X, Y or Z is the person themselves.

That's part of the problem with a relatively high level of immaturity on a forum - the inability to accept someone else having a different opinion about how a certain hobby should be enjoyed.

I like doing the maths and engineering, and am most interested in pneumatics, but have developed more interest in coilguns over the last few years.
I don't build hybrid launchers by the seat of my pants, but I can't tell someone who does it that way that they don't enjoy it. One, it's almost certainly wrong, and two, it's narrow-minded.
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Unread postAuthor: btrettel » Sun May 30, 2010 12:56 pm

At least the guy who posted the mentioned quote admitted some people would enjoy that angle. But he still misread me. The tables I posted are helpful for those who want to tweak their guns further. The tables are not necessary in the strictest sense.

He seems to think the hobby is only about shooting people with foam darts... nope, that's not all Nerf is to me. People have asked me "Why go through all this effort just to shoot foam darts?" and I am beginning to wonder if they ask themselves that question.

There are better online examples. This one immediately came to mind.
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Unread postAuthor: Lockednloaded » Sun May 30, 2010 2:51 pm

I see why pneumatic nerf gun that can be easily adjusted are frowned upon, people get frustrated, regs are turned up and you have to explain how your "safe gun" has just put a foam dart through a pair of goggles. On the other hand, those who are willing to put many hours and hundreds of dollars to produce their own nerf gun are not going to compromise their hard work to get it banned by their friends.

On the topic of modding...
Nerf guns are innacuarate in stock form, what's wrong with adding a few modifications that sacrifice some aesthetic properties. I know they should attempt to make thier guns more sturdy and less ghetto, but they don't want to because they don't find it nessecary to spend more than they speant on the actual guns. Saying the people on nerf forums are kids is not a good excuse, I myself am thirteen and I think I have made many respectable creations. Let's let the nerfers do what they want, there's room for improvement, but they are having fun
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Unread postAuthor: btrettel » Sun May 30, 2010 5:49 pm

Homemade pneumatic blasters are banned at most Nerf wars primarily because of ball valve cannons where the chamber is about 30 times larger than the barrel. There was a time before these bans; I was in the NIC then.

To the best of my knowledge there never was any problem with regulators being adjusted so that the blasters are less safe. That situation is contrived. And frankly, I'm not surprised because in my efforts to argue against these bans I've seen all sorts of justifications, none of which are valid for my blasters, and many of which never were problems to begin with. These people are grasping at straws.

I'm willing to take my blasters and do a double blind test. I'm confident that under a double blind test (and probably single blind where the target doesn't know what is being shot at them), people will say my pneumatics are safer, while under a non-blinded test people will say my pneumatics are less safe. The placebo effect is strong.
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Last edited by btrettel on Sun May 30, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Sun May 30, 2010 5:54 pm

Fellas, give MindWarrior some credit. He is right when he speaks of Nerf blaster being completely different than what we do. Of course, there is a lot for those 10 year old kids to learn from. And, of course, there is only a handful of the true modders who can help but don't (I mean, a lot of them would rather flame a new modder than help him out, whereas we don't tend to do that here).

But all in all, I think he makes some pretty valid points. The purpose of modding a Nerf gun is to make it better, which doesn't necessarily mean that it is to add power. There is a lot that those guys can learn, but there is a lot we can learn too.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun May 30, 2010 6:37 pm

btrettel wrote:He seems to think the hobby is only about shooting people with foam darts...

That's the objective (or at least, a route to it), but it is not the point of nerf. People will very often get those confused.

To list an example from one of my other hobbies, some people think the point of tabletop wargaming is to win - which is really the objective. The point is to have fun - in that particular case by testing your strategic intellect, as well as your modelling and painting skills.

Unfortunately, too many people treat the objective of a game as the point of it, get obsessed with winning, and in the process, forget to actually have fun.
It's that kind of thing that does spawn the kind of wankers who cheat - often to the detriment of others. (I would list examples, but I think we all know enough - you can start with paintball and the ways to cheat if you want examples of people getting the point of the game wrong.)

Lockednloaded wrote:Saying the people on nerf forums are kids is not a good excuse, I myself am thirteen and I think I have made many respectable creations.

Whoa there. Let's be fair here. Age is a reasonable excuse - the fact that some kids are capable of above average feats does not mean that all kids should be assumed to be able to do the same.

I was a published author at thirteen - should I then expect such a thing of any thirteen year old?
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Unread postAuthor: MindWarrior » Sun May 30, 2010 7:00 pm

All true, I'm sorry if I came out as completely hating you guys, I don't. As in terms of cosmetics, many of us want to make it competetive before anything else, but there are a significant few who do the opposite:
Image
This one was from Eik from NerfHQ.
Your nerf blasters on these forums are pretty awe inspiring compared to the performance of ours. btrettel, your doom on nerf haven correct? If not then I apologize, I've visited your blog and I've seen your stuff, its pretty impressive with the fang project you have there.
Now on to counter some minor arguments.
Ragnarok, many single shot blasters are crap, just crap. The tek1, Eliminator EX-1, anf the crossfire have crap internals. There are exceptions such as the Big bad bow, the Nitefinder, and the element. They are good performing blasters and are very popular to use. Many Rapid fire blasters have large plunger tubes to overcome the inefficiencies of of their rapid fire capabilities. Examples include the Rapid fire shot gun, Lanard shotgun, Longshot. Though many nowadays keep the rapid fire abilities with some extensive modifications, some prefer the easy route by slapping a coupler on it instead. Besides with PVC clips they can achieve the same if not higher rate of fire than they could with a turret or clip.'
By the way, I'm sixteen.
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Unread postAuthor: Lockednloaded » Sun May 30, 2010 7:11 pm

Ragnarok wrote:Whoa there. Let's be fair here. Age is a reasonable excuse - the fact that some kids are capable of above average feats does not mean that all kids should be assumed to be able to do the same.

I was a published author at thirteen - should I then expect such a thing of any thirteen year old?


sorry if that looked like i was bragging... Anyway, there are limits based on age, but effort, time, and hard work are tools that can make a project great, and are not unobtainable by most.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sun May 30, 2010 7:42 pm

MindWarrior wrote:Many Rapid fire blasters have large plunger tubes to overcome the inefficiencies of of their rapid fire capabilities.

Well then, that sounds like a valid enough answer to me.

Lockednloaded wrote:sorry if that looked like i was bragging...

No, not really - but you can never really take a single individual as completely representative of an entire group.
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