Login    Register
User Information
Username:
Password:
We are a free and open
community, all are welcome.
Click here to Register
Sponsored
Who is online

In total there are 54 users online :: 6 registered, 0 hidden and 48 guests


Most users ever online was 218 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:58 pm

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MCRKilljoy, MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot] based on users active over the past 5 minutes

The Team
Administrators
Global Moderators
global_moderators.png CS

How Do I Make A Electrolysis Machine To Use For Welding

All non-spudgun related discussion goes here such as projects, theories, serious questions, etc. All "off-topic" posts (aka useless posting, determined by moderators) will be removed.
Sponsored 
  • Author
    Message

How Do I Make A Electrolysis Machine To Use For Welding

Unread postAuthor: pixelsblack009 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:51 am

hello,
is there anyway using water I can create a constant and enough supply of Hydrogen and Oxygen to connect to my welding torch to produce a flame,?
I saw an oxyhydrogen welding machine which runs on water and a electrolyte with a power supply it is basically just a big electrolysis machine,
can someone give me some tips on what materials I should use to get a more effective out put and what kind of power source i should use amps + voltage, I could hook it up to a transformer and use two diodes 8)
what electrodes should I use graphite ? will it provide a good and efficient output ?
what electrolyte should I use I dont have to use salt or baking soda I dont mind spending a bit of money on chemicals ect...
I think I could figure out most of the structural things what I need to know is what materials I should use to make a good and constant amount of oxygen and hydrogen
and I dont mind spending some money if it would work good :)

edit: (me not know edit function)
PS: whats most important is for me to have Hydrogen and Oxygen separate
to have one hose for Hydrogen and the other for Oxygen

I was just thinking: I could have two empty paint tins use the metal tin as the "electrode", pour water and electrolyte into each tin, connect a + on to one of the metal tins "because remember the metal tin itself is acting as the electrode" and connect - onto the surface of the other tin, then because the tins are separate and the circuit is not closed, just tie a wire around both of the tins together so the current passes through both tins that are together and the circuit is closed now make a hole in the covers of the two tins attach two tubes so the gas coming out of the negative tin is Hydrogen and the positive tin is expelling Oxygen so then hook both tubes to my welding torch and close the tins "tight"
plz giv me some ideas and tell me what chemicals and especially important what power source I should use thanks what do you think of the idea above?

Edited by jrrdw.
  • 0


pixelsblack009
Private
Private
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 am
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Biopyro » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:09 am

How-To Database (NOT FOR HELP-ME POSTS!)


Welcome to SpudFiles, the world's only Spud Cannon Database


I think you need to do a lot more research on electrolysis, electricity and it's science in general before you are ready to be using such dangerous gases.

Did there not used to be a "report" button under each post?

There are lots of H2 + O separator plans all over the internet, and I've no doubt there are more suitable forums too. Just so you know, the electricity will take the path of least resistance, through the wire not the water.
  • 0

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Biopyro
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:32 am
Location: UK
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: psycix » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:19 am

Since this is your first post I'll just answer some of your questions, but don't do it again. +1 to what Biopyro said.

-You will need low voltage direct current (like 12V)
-You will need LOTS of current (like 20A)
-You will need stainless steel electrodes (graphite will break down)
-The most common electrolyte is a strong base, but I don't think thats a good idea for you to use that. Stick with baking soda. Salt makes chlorine.
-This is a spudgun forum.
  • 0

Till the day I'm dieing, I'll keep them spuddies flying, 'cause I can!

Spudfiles steam group, join!
User avatar
psycix
Donating Member
Donating Member
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:12 am
Location: The Netherlands
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: velocity3x » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:57 am

I designed and built this HHO generator a few years ago but, I parked it because I found HHO to be far to dangerous for my liking. At 13a using 6oz limon juice concentrate and 1 gallon of distilled water, it produces 3 liters of HHO per minute with very low heating of the unit.

These are renderings of the unit: (4" ABS case)
  • 0

Attachments
assem3.jpg
assem3.jpg (30.46 KiB) Viewed 1004 times
assem2.jpg
User avatar
velocity3x
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Yuma, Arizona
Country: United States (us)
Reputation: 7

Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:38 pm

The stuff generated with a common gas collector is well known for exploding. There is lots of info online with ways people try to prevent a backfire from going all the way to the cell and making it explode.

The safer alternative is the dual gas collection where O2 and H2 are not allowed to combine in the cell and are then mixed in a traditional fashion at the welding torch.

Look in youtube for videos of the cells exploding. There are several.
I am sure many more exploded without the video running.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLOv5g2BVQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfk8jXVUF34[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqSWhQCnl-g[/youtube]
  • 0

User avatar
Technician1002
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 5190
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:10 am
Reputation: 14

Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:12 pm

I will second (or third) the dangerous part.
For a welding cell, 20A will not cut it. I used a 5 volt 200A supply, and that would not be enough for effective welding.
This would be a VERY involved and expensive project.
For a serious cell, I would use 316 stainless steel electrodes, with sodium hydroxide in water. Flash back arrestors (notice the plural part) are a MUST. On mine, I had (in order)
a bubbler
poor-mans flash back arrestor
the tubing to me
another poor mans arrestor
a foam flash back arrestor(unused cigarette filters are supposed to work very well)
and a flow choke

Sodium hydroxide is dangerous, it will burn you. One of my earlier cells exploded, and I got chemical burns all around one of my eyes.
  • 0

User avatar
rp181
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:47 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Heimo » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:38 pm

also I won't use hydrgen to weld besides the obvious safety problem there is a little something called hydrogen enbrittlement (sp?) in short metal exposed to hydrogen can become brittle that is why storing hydrogen is such a problem I think that they use oil impregnated bronze to contain the stuff cause a steel tank would turn brittle and explode
  • 0

User avatar
Heimo
2nd Lieutenant
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:02 pm
Reputation: 0

Sponsored

Sponsor
 


Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:29 pm

hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem when gas is on demand.
  • 0

User avatar
rp181
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:47 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Zeus » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:23 pm

If you were to research this more, can I point you to http://4hv.org/news.php
  • 0

User avatar
Zeus
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:34 pm
Location: 'Straya, C*nt
Reputation: 2

Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:02 am

you will not get much replies on 4hv. There have been several topics, and the only people that respond is me and one other chemistry person.

You will not be able to run a stible machine on a normal outlet. Even my 200A 1.6kW supply won't supply enough:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rp181/4125994182/sizes/l/
  • 0

User avatar
rp181
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:47 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: McCoytheGreater » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:02 am

This post has everything and nothing do do with the thread, and I apologize in advance, read the rest of the post, though. Did anyone notice that the dude that sat down in Technician's second video kind of looks like Morgan Freeman? I don't think we hear his voice which is sad, cause I'm a fan of Morgan Freeman's voice.
  • 0

User avatar
McCoytheGreater
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:10 am
Location: Mississippi State
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: pixelsblack009 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:50 am

Hello,
I fully understand now that this post does not belong here, I only posted because I saw a another post on this forum about a electrolysis machine that someone had posted before and I required additional info and I did'nt want to cram my questions down another persons post :D sorry,
I just have a few more questions if that's cool with you guys,

1. I got some potassium hydroxide KOH, could I use that?
2. I had about 1 cup of water in a plastic jar made two holes in it with my soldering gun and drove two 10mm stainless steel nuts into it so it touches the water and acts like anode/cathode, dissolved a tea spoon of KOH into the water and hooked it up to a car battery (90AMPS I think) and it did'nt produce much HHO as I expected at all just a couple of few tiny bubbles around the anode and cathode, I expected it to be bubbling and smoking out hydrogen and oxygen, the battery is good too the water started to get very hot after around 15 minutes it was'nt boiling but it was sure hot :?
3. is stainless steel bolts good enough should I use somthin else ?
4. what other power source is recommended ?

thanks :-)
  • 0


pixelsblack009
Private
Private
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 am
Reputation: 0

Re: How Do I Make A Electrolysis Machine To Use For Welding

Unread postAuthor: Insomniac » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:28 am

pixelsblack009 wrote:I was just thinking: I could have two empty paint tins use the metal tin as the "electrode", pour water and electrolyte into each tin, connect a + on to one of the metal tins "because remember the metal tin itself is acting as the electrode" and connect - onto the surface of the other tin, then because the tins are separate and the circuit is not closed, just tie a wire around both of the tins together so the current passes through both tins that are together and the circuit is closed now make a hole in the covers of the two tins attach two tubes so the gas coming out of the negative tin is Hydrogen and the positive tin is expelling Oxygen so then hook both tubes to my welding torch and close the tins "tight"
plz giv me some ideas and tell me what chemicals and especially important what power source I should use thanks what do you think of the idea above?
Edited by jrrdw.


You need to think this through again... With the setup you just described, you are essentially making a short circuit that happens to have a bit of water sitting around it in a couple of places. The electricity would flow straight from one can, through the wire and to the other can, then back to the power supply. This would not do a thing. The water isn't broken apart because it is positively or negatively charged, it is broken up because there is an electric current flowing through it. In that setup, there would be no current flowing through the water itself. When you break apart a molecule of H2O, you end up with 2 different types of atom, one of oxygen and 2 of hydrogen. These then have to make their way to the different electrodes, where they collect and form as bubbles of H2 and O2 gas. In the setup you described, there are 2 seperate bodies of water. Even if the water molecules started breaking down (which they woudln't), how would each gas make its way back to its respective electrode? The only way to make it work would be an insulated hose or pipe allowing water to flow freely between the two cans, and losing the wire connecting them. This setup also wouldn't be very fast... the quickest generators tend to have many electrodes with large surface area very close together.
  • 0

I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges.
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

Add me on msn!!! insomniac-55@hotmail.com
User avatar
Insomniac
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:47 pm
Location: Australia
Country: Australia (au)
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: pixelsblack009 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:25 am

Errr yes about that, I know I realized that when I got a big spark on the battery, I guess I was'nt thinkin strait, cuz yeah current goes the easiest way, thought least resistance too so it would just pass from one can to the other without actually passing through the water, but my main problem here is having Hydrogen and Oxygen separate, then combine them at the torch, what about the material I should use for the anode and cathode and in what form should I use it, in strips, what about a mesh, a mesh has a larger surface area if I'm correct, how could I make the electrodes more efficient? and is it ok to use KOH, potassium hydroxide is this good is it better that using salt/baking powder should I use this ?
and current/voltage what would you recommend here?
Thanks Jeremy Brett
  • 0


pixelsblack009
Private
Private
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 am
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:49 pm

KOH should work fine. You need a fairly concentrated solution though.

The voltage doesn't need to be all that high. It really only takes something like 2V to hydrolyze water. But most people use 12V since it's pretty easy to get a high current 12V supply (like a car battery or a car battery charger).

Mesh can be used as the electrodes but most mesh has less surface area than the same size plate. It has to be a very dense mesh to have more surface area.

Like every one else has said, stainless steel is the best electrode material that is affordable and available. Thin sheets are all you need. In a pinch, or as a test setup, you can use galvinized steel sheet from the hardware store.

If you want to keep the H2 and O2 separate then the anode and cathode have to be fairly far apart (at least an inch or so) and that means the cells resitance is higher and it will be less efficient.

To get high surface area and still be able to keep the gases separated is going to be tricky and the cell(s) will probably have to be pretty big.

You might consider making more than one cell and running them in series from a 12V supply.
  • 0

Image

jimmy101
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Country: United States (us)
Reputation: 7

Next

Return to Non-Spudgun Related Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MCRKilljoy, MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot]

Reputation System ©'