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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:42 am

Most civilized, democratic countries have abolished capital punishment. This is especially true of those countries with a Christian tradition.

The last execution in Canada took place in 1962 and the last one in Mexico was in 1961. Here's a short list of other countries with the last year of execution: Australia (1967), Israel (1962), Brazil (1876), Argentina (1916), United Kingdom (1964), France (1977), and Italy (1947).

Image
Blue: capital punishment abolished for all crimes; Green: abolished for all crimes expect some committed in exceptional circumstances; Brown: abolished in practice; Red: legal form of punishment

The United States differs from its geographical and cultural neighbors. Why does the United States still carry out executions in 2011 when the practice has ceased in all those countries with a similar cultural and religious background?



Interesting graphic (article stolen from here)
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:37 am

velocity3x wrote:Many of the "99%" protestors are people just like him.


They can't get jobs, but cancer can get Jobs.

Too zune?
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Unread postAuthor: USGF » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:44 am

MrCrowley wrote: snip
The United States differs from its geographical and cultural neighbors. Why does the United States still carry out executions in 2011 when the practice has ceased in all those countries with a similar cultural and religious background?



We have figured out rehabilitation don't really work that well. The others are still trying to make it work.

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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:10 am

One would argue it was the opposite considering the countries have dropped capital punishment and not picked it up again, indicating they got rehabilitation to work.

You'll find that the convicts with the highest re-offending rates are convicts who committed crimes not punishable by death (partly because rapists, murderers, armed robbery etc, convicts serve very long sentences).

I'm of the opinion that the sentences for criminals in NZ is much too light as a murderer can get out in less than 10 years or so depending on their crime.

There's still the problem of innocents being convicted, the U.S. should be happy Italy doesn't have capital punishment (though, Knox probably didn't serve long enough to be next on death row).

As much as people like, you can't keep a small time drug dealer or car thief behind bars for life or stick them on death row so you may as well figure out how to stop them re-offending.

Regardless of all that, people on death row generally don't re-offend much while in prison. I think capital punishment can even be too light of a sentence, if you read the last words of some criminals, many are happy believing they are going to a 'heaven', others profess innocence and some don't really care.

I guess this is just another situation where the U.S. is at the bottom of the table among third world countries (religious belief over scientific fact being the other).

I've never confessed a pro-capital punishment or anti-capital punishment ideology due to the situations where you think someone is better of dead or where you think a mistake has been made or where you think them being dead is more convenient for them then the public. I guess in this case I'm just surprised by the above graphic.

Edit: By the way, just to reinforce the point, everything in the post above from me (the one with the graphic) is not my writing, it is a direct quote from a blog.
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Unread postAuthor: velocity3x » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:18 pm

Although Canada doesn't have a death penality, this is how they chose to deal with an old case. IMO, it's a slap in the face to the victims relatives and the rest of the country:

"Olson, who had an extensive criminal history,[4] was arrested on August 12, 1981 on suspicion of attempts to abduct two girls.[2] By August 25, Olson had been charged with the murder of Judy Kozma.[3] He reached a controversial deal with authorities, agreeing to confess to the 11 murders and show the RCMP where the bodies of those not recovered were buried. In return, authorities agreed that $10,000 for each victim was paid into a trust for his wife, Joan, and then-infant son, Clifford Jr.[5] His wife received $100,000 after Olson cooperated with the RCMP, the 11th body being a 'freebie'"
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:18 pm

Why does the United States still carry out executions in 2011 when the practice has ceased in all those countries with a similar cultural and religious background?



Because if you kill somebody here, we kill you back...in most states not all of them.
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Unread postAuthor: velocity3x » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:46 pm

MrCrowley wrote:There's still the problem of innocents being convicted, the U.S. should be happy Italy doesn't have capital punishment (though, Knox probably didn't serve long enough to be next on death row).


After recently seeing a documentary presenting the total evidence against her, I understand why she was convicted. The day she was released, Court officials stated that they think she IS guilty, but released her because they have a higher standard of proof than other countries.
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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:58 pm

velocity3x wrote:With his worth ethic. he will never amount to anything. Not because of the system, but because of his own attitude. IMO, he's the typical turd floating in the labor pool, but wants to be recognized as being special. I too would consider sending everything to India if he was the only kind of labor available. If he wants to protest, he should leave Wall Street and protest at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue....that's where most of the problems originate!
You may be correct that the government is the real source of the problems and that wall street is just exploiting their failures. However, I know multiple people whose only way to get money is to sell people things they don't need. It's happening everywhere in America, really disturbing. Everyone seems to just buy and sell products and services they have no need for just to keep money moving.

And in response to your more recent post,
Wikipedia wrote:Olson pleaded guilty to 11 counts of murder and was given 11 concurrent life sentences to be served in Canada's super-maximum security Special Handling Unit in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, Quebec, which houses many of the country's most dangerous criminals.[1] Olson was a dangerous offender, meaning it was very unlikely he would ever have been released from prison.
I think the decision was very fair and just. He was just refused parole again in 2010.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:22 pm

I have mixed feelings. After reading the book "A time to Kill" it is possible to understand crimes so bad that capitol punishment is way too soft. Calling back drawn and quartered would be more in line with fitting the crime.

Witch hunts and cases with reasonable doubt are a problem.

The Christianity comes in two camps. New Testament that teaches the parable of the sower. Bad seed comes up with the bad. At harvest, the fruitful is kept and the weeds are pulled and burned.

The old testament with "God's chosen people" the punishment for impurity closely resembles the modern Muslem religion. Homos were put to death and such. The Muslim religion has some similarity to Christianity with believers on both extremes..

Somehow I may have crossed the line on this post. I feel the religion portion belongs in the sister site.. but still on topic as the map and Christianity was mentioned. :roll: Mods, feel free to edit or delete if needed.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:37 pm

velocity3x wrote:After recently seeing a documentary presenting the total evidence against her, I understand why she was convicted. The day she was released, Court officials stated that they think she IS guilty, but released her because they have a higher standard of proof than other countries.
In my mind the only reason she was ever convicted was because of the prosecutor (who has now been convicted of a criminal offence yet was allowed to continue working the case) who is a Christian (I only added this to support a latter statement) who is completely obsessed with the devil, satan, satanic worshipping, sex rituals etc. He was convinced from day one there was a three or four way sex orgy satanic ritual and the killing was part of the ritual. He was also present when they interrogated Knox for extended periods of time, much longer than what is generally allowed in the U.S. (most interrogations that extend for a certain amount of time, I think 14 or so hours, are thrown out due to distress from the suspect).

Then they actually found the killer who had no link to Knox and her boyfriend, confessed to the crime, had motive for the crime and originally didn't say anything about Knox and her boyfriend until he found out he may get off by blaming them.

I would lay a small amount of blame on the media, they are the ones who take a picture when Knox happens to smile at her parents in court and label it as "Knox smiles when given verdict" or some crap like that. There was also "evidence" that Knox and her boyfriend were seen comforting each other after the killing, kissing and hugging, how this is evidence is beyond my scope of reason.

IIRC, at least one of the jurors didn't believe Knox and her boyfriend had anything to do with it, who cares about court officials? I assume you're talking about the judge who said ""They could have been responsible but there is no proof. Perhaps they knew what happened that night. We do not know"? Their main evidence was the bra clasp which hadn't been found until 47 days after the murder and scientists couldn't conclude exactly who's DNA it was as the testing didn't hold up to international standards. No forensic evidence was ever found placing Knox in the room.

I can only conclude that: Guede was the sole attacker in this crime, Knox and her boyfriend weren't present, Giuliano Mignini is responsible for the "witch hunt" that led to Knox's conviction, there is no motive for either Knox or her boyfriend, there is no forensic evidence placing either of them in the room, they had no ties to the convicted murder (Guede) and the only possible way they could be guilty is if they hired Guede to kill Meredith, which there is not even one piece of evidence for.


Edit:
Bad seed comes up with the bad. At harvest, the fruitful is kept and the weeds are pulled and burned.

Is that a metaphor or a farmer's guide? :D
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:26 pm

Because if you kill somebody here, we kill you back...
and then you have to kill those who executed him... and then those who killed those who executed him... and so on
:D

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind


Though personaly I am in favour of death penalty.... but somehow I don't think that something as corrupt as the government can be trusted with it
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:49 pm

POLAND_SPUD wrote:Though personaly I am in favour of death penalty.... but somehow I don't think that something as corrupt as the government can be trusted with it
I agree.

While an alright idea, it never really has been carried out as well as it should have over the years.

If anyone else has read David Simon's 'Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets', you'll also know how unreliable jury's can be and most of the time they just want to get home to their kids on a Friday night so they hurry the verdict rather than spending 3 days in a hotel room.
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Unread postAuthor: velocity3x » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:52 pm

I get no particular satisfaction out of anyone being executed and I might oppose the death penality if the govt would actually put the criminal away forever. Not like Manson, allowing him to live on as a jailhouse cleb with an occasional shot at parole. Put them in a cell, alone, never to leave their cell again. They would probably become so crazy, their brain would eat their eyeballs....so what. It's called punishment.
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Unread postAuthor: LeMaudit » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:03 pm

Personally, I think it's only fair to receive at least the same treatment as your victims. This would be my idea of a fair justice:
You steal, then you work until you pay off the same amount, all your life if necessary.
You injure someone, then you receive a similar treatment.
You kill... you've got the idea.

And this is not punishment in my view, this is only a fair balance, a consequence of your actions that you have to assume. You receive as much as you give... and you must give back as much as you took.

A punishment would be to give back more than that was taken. But that would not be humane in some cases, right? :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:05 pm

How do you distinguish between the different degress of murder? :D
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