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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:21 am

POLAND_SPUD wrote:someone has thought it would make an awesome weapon


One could cut out the "firing" part altogether, and even the explosives.

Remember this?

Image

If you're replacing a sniper rifle going after personnel, trucks etc, you can get by with a much, much smaller round - 25 to 100 grams perhaps - and you could drop it from a UAV.

A Predator drone (which is relatively small and expendable) can carry 136kg of external payload. That means 1,360 100 gram slugs. I would say a streamlined steel dart (maybe with some lead or tungsten thrown in to increase sectional density) dropped from 25,000 feet would have more than enough energy to punch through the hood of a truck and disable the engine, let alone kill an individual soldier.

ohh and why spend $$$ on something that will be used so rarely? if one really needs better accuracy at longer ranges you can use these


I would have to agree, a well set up heavy calibre rifle with a decent ballistic computer is hard to beat in terms of cost effectiveness - though you have to consider the amount of time and money it takes to achieve and maintain the level of skill that allows one to hit targets consistently over two miles away.

Tech wrote:a cheap source for a 4 quadrant detector is the laser pickup assy from any dvd or cd player. They are used as part of the focus servo. A pickup diode array has 6 diodes. 4 in the center are the main pickup. 2 more are used for tracking the recorded line.


Fascinating... how precisely do you want those T-shirts delivered ;)

edit: speaking of scary future tech:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4[/youtube]

bloody hell... reminds me of a miniature version of theJigabachi from Ghost in the Shell...
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:09 pm

dropped from 25,000 feet would have more than enough energy to punch through the hood of a truck and disable the engine, let alone kill an individual soldier. :o
i understand we're talking about laser guided darts, right ? Sure it does sound like a viable option, in fact it does sound more practical than the thing that started this discussion

However, while I understand your love of high sectional density penetrators.... :D
...explosives would be more useful
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:45 pm

edit: speaking of scary future tech:


*Grabs crowbar*
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:33 pm

POLAND_SPUD wrote:...explosives would be more useful


A 100 gram dart at ~ 10 km/s (as dropped from the "rods of god" setup) would possess 5 megajoules of kinetic energy, roughly 10 times more chemical energy than 100 grams of TNT.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:10 am

Fnord wrote:*Grabs crowbar*


More like AA-12! You see, my sentry gun will be useful one day :D

However, while I understand your love of high sectional density penetrators....
...explosives would be more useful


Well, define "useful" - in this world of <s>assassinations</s> targeted killings and unacceptable civilian casualties, the ability to hit a point target is a very, very useful feature.

You can imagine taking out a single individual in a car, as opposed to the whole car and any unlucky pedestrians in close proximity.

In many military scenarios the ability to influence an area target is certainly helpful though, so maybe the solution would be something that separates into multiple sub-projectiles before impact is a good idea.

The CBU-107 pretty much does this already.

A 100 gram dart at ~ 10 km/s (as dropped from the "rods of god" setup) would possess 5 megajoules of kinetic energy, roughly 10 times more chemical energy than 100 grams of TNT.


In the UAV drop scenario I'm picturing, it won't get anywhere near that velocity - but say it gets to a realistic 1000 fps, that's still almost 3,500 ft/lbs on gravity alone, which is slightly more than a typical 50 BMG round would have at 2000 yards so an AMR comparison is valid. Also, you'd be going for the typically less heavily armoured top part of the target, it's much easier to penetrate the roof of an APC than the front.

You can also go beyond the arbitrary 100g figure, your predator can carry 136 x 1000g projectiles instead. That's roughly a 1 inch diameter 10 inch long steel cylinder, dropped from 25,000 feet that would go through quite a lot...
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Unread postAuthor: Daltonultra » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:45 am

JSR, I responded to your idea as you laid it out, with the design idea you pointed out, which would require a HUGE launcher to achieve range. You've come halfway back to the concept these gentlemen are testing.

BTW, there are countless scenarios in which using an explosive round is completely unfeasible. Hostage situations alone REQUIRE a kinetic-kill round.


POLAND_SPUD wrote:
Hmm... well, here's a video
lol so I was right...
someone has thought it would make an awesome weapon

I think that the vid you posted shows something that will actually be adopted soon... now let me get back to the thing we're discussing now...
It's guided, so the high velocity in order to get the flat trajectory to ease aiming is unnecessary. I would aim for high subsonic at most, in a streamlined and dense platform for good velocity retention
I agree completely...
since it is laser guided you probably need two ppl: one to fire the gun and one to illuminate the target
something like a terminally guided grenade launcher would work much better and would be much more practical IMO (even assuming its max range would be lower)


ohh and why spend $$$ on something that will be used so rarely? if one really needs better accuracy at longer ranges you can use these


1) snipers already operate in teams of two as a minimum; one shooter, one spotter. All that this changes is that the spotter has slightly more input in designating targets, and slightly less responsibility for tracking wind and atmospheric conditions.

2) Sniper rifle are hardly a "rarely-used" resource. In Afghanistan alone, there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of long-range kills by snipers and designated marksman. They're highly effective and widely used in the field.

3) Problems are being exposed with our drone programs already. We've lost more to glitches and maintenance issues than I personally would consider acceptable, and quite a number of questions have been raised about their use. Simply put, somebody looking through an overhead camera sees a very different picture from somebody on the ground. In a battle, that's good. In a sinper engagement, that can be very, very bad.

4) "Crowbars" are of very limited use against mobile targets, and they have most of the same restrictions as explosives. And the long descent time means using them during a developing situation would be at times impossible, and at other times, GROSS overkill in term of money and manpower. They're a strategic weapon, not a field-tactical weapon.

5) A rifle that fires a large kinetic-kill round like the .50BMG can easily accept a small explosive round, though the range will suffer a little. Adding a small explosive charge to a high-velocity round isn't hard. But using a launcher designed primarily for low-velocity explosive rounds to fire a high-velocity kinetic round isn't nearly as easy. The flexibility of high-caliber rifles is their big selling point. There is even a .50 AMR round designed to penetrate light armor or cover, and THEN detonate a small explosive. It can penetrate up to 4 inches of concrete and still be effective on exit.


Simply put, conventional sniper and anti-materiel rifles aren't going anywhere, and neither is the conventional sniper team or rifle squad. This is another tool for them, and a very flexible tool, at that. Going low-velocity and relying on explosives would mean hauling around a piece of equipment that wouldn't be useful in a lot of situations.

Besides, they already HAVE laser-guided mortar rounds...
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:33 am

Daltonultra wrote:JSR, I responded to your idea as you laid it out, with the design idea you pointed out, which would require a HUGE launcher to achieve range. You've come halfway back to the concept these gentlemen are testing.


I disagree on the HUGE launcher point.

Let's take the M79 grenade launcher, it can fire a roughly 230 gram grenade at a paltry 250 feet per second out to 400 metres. The grenade is dumpy and of relatively terrible aerodynamic shape, and of poor sectional density because of the explosive filling.

Using the same launcher and cartridge, I guesstimate you could throw a subcalibre saboted dart (say 0.50", of the same weight and therefore at the same muzzle velocity) out to at least 1,000 metres, if I had GGDT available here I would give you some hard numbers.

Now, the M79 can be fired easily by one man and has nowhere near the recoil of a 50 BMG rifle. There are also higher velocity grenade cartridges out there that extend the range with grenades out to 700-800 metres, and one man is capable of firing these rounds standing and unsupported.

I'll punch some numbers into GGDT when I get home but off the top of my head I would say that a 200 gram projectile fired at 500 fps at a high angle could easily match a 50 BMG rifle in terms of effective range, while still capable of being fired by an individual.

BTW, there are countless scenarios in which using an explosive round is completely unfeasible. Hostage situations alone REQUIRE a kinetic-kill round.


Still possible in the scenario I proposed:

Say it loses 40% of its velocity by the time it gets to the target, a 200 gram 0.50 cal dart travelling at 300fps carries over 600 ft/lbs of energy, more than enough to take out a bad guy without the need for explosives.

3) Problems are being exposed with our drone programs already. We've lost more to glitches and maintenance issues than I personally would consider acceptable, and quite a number of questions have been raised about their use. Simply put, somebody looking through an overhead camera sees a very different picture from somebody on the ground. In a battle, that's good. In a sinper engagement, that can be very, very bad.


True, they aren't perfect - but they're certainly the way of the future, you can be sure that they won't be going away any time soon and the technology is only going to get better.

4) "Crowbars" are of very limited use against mobile targets, and they have most of the same restrictions as explosives. And the long descent time means using them during a developing situation would be at times impossible, and at other times, GROSS overkill in term of money and manpower. They're a strategic weapon, not a field-tactical weapon.


Agreed, but a UAV dropped projectile will reach the ground in less than a minute and certainly needs much less resources to be deployed than a satellite dropped projectile.

5) A rifle that fires a large kinetic-kill round like the .50BMG can easily accept a small explosive round, though the range will suffer a little. Adding a small explosive charge to a high-velocity round isn't hard. But using a launcher designed primarily for low-velocity explosive rounds to fire a high-velocity kinetic round isn't nearly as easy. The flexibility of high-caliber rifles is their big selling point. There is even a .50 AMR round designed to penetrate light armor or cover, and THEN detonate a small explosive. It can penetrate up to 4 inches of concrete and still be effective on exit.


A laser guided projectile gives you the option of circumventing cover. You can't engage a man in a trench with a direct fire AMR. You can with a high angle round. Naturally you still need something to point the laser designator at him, but this has been done for years.

Simply put, conventional sniper and anti-materiel rifles aren't going anywhere, and neither is the conventional sniper team or rifle squad. This is another tool for them, and a very flexible tool, at that. Going low-velocity and relying on explosives would mean hauling around a piece of equipment that wouldn't be useful in a lot of situations.


I'm not saying they should go away. "Iron" bombs are still with us, for all the advances in smart technology. Rather, what I'm saying is that adding laser guidance offers a whole world of possibilities and I think it's short sighted to try and apply it straight away to an AMR style round.

Besides, they already HAVE laser-guided mortar rounds...


... so let's make 'em smaller and take out the guy instead of the house ;)
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:35 am

How well does your State teach Science?



On a side note, anyone having trouble loading pages operated by Google? The search engine itself is extremely slow as well as its blog and web-browser app counterpart.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:23 am

Sniper rifle are hardly a "rarely-used" resource. In Afghanistan alone, there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of long-range kills by snipers and designated marksman. They're highly effective and widely used in the field.
Well I've never said that they are rarely used...

In normal situations there is rarely a need/possibilty to engage targets 1000-2000 meters away... Afganistan is an exception not a rule and as I pointed out earlier there exist systems that can do that.

ohh and notice that the round isn't of standard size - so you'd need a special gun to fire it - I can tell you that the army will sooner widely adopt something more traditional, like cheytac rifles than this...


kamikaze drones on the other hand offer something new... amateurs can build FPV RC setups for less than 1000$. I wonder if something developed for the military could cost less than 20 000$ per unit. I can see it used as an ATGM missile and a cheapo cruise missile for soft targets...

hmm I wonder if it could use an optical fibre instead of RF for communication with the drone (that's what spike ATGM missiles use - vid below) - it would make it unjammable. What is more an ATGM based on an UAV would not require LOS with the target and it wouldn't expose the operator on launch
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdDOHgcLGRI[/youtube]


EDIT
ohh you can see this projectile here
@3:40
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/#clip610736
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Unread postAuthor: jakethebeast » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:53 pm

Truely offtopic, but i made few lathe-blades today for my axis-drill. Worked quite good, didn't take long to make o-ring groove to a piece of bohler 460 (1.3% carbon, 0.7% vanadium) i made them from O1 toolsteel and 52100 ballbearing steel, the ball bearing one cutted brass like a charm, didn't try it with steel though
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:19 pm

definatelly NSFW
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EDIT
ohh sorry apparently it doesn't work anymore... damn
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:29 pm

definatelly


If I had a nickel for every different spelling of "definitely" I've seen...
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:36 pm

Gun Freak wrote:
definatelly


If I had a nickel for every different spelling of "definitely" I've seen...
lol I am not a native speaker of english and I am drunk so STFU :D
:wink:
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:50 pm

:D

Funny how so many people spell it like "defiantly" lol
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Unread postAuthor: Mr.Sandman » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:51 pm

jakethebeast wrote:Truely offtopic, but i made few lathe-blades today for my axis-drill. Worked quite good, didn't take long to make o-ring groove to a piece of bohler 460 (1.3% carbon, 0.7% vanadium) i made them from O1 toolsteel and 52100 ballbearing steel, the ball bearing one cutted brass like a charm, didn't try it with steel though
You should really get your own thread to post pictures of your workshop and knife making, you do some pretty interesting stuff.
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