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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:07 pm

This seems to happen too often here:
Teenager killed playing with airgun

I think last time it happened a (undercover) cop was shot and killed by a FX Monsoon.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:25 pm

MrCrowley wrote:This seems to happen too often here


No it doesn't.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_sta ... #mortality

Good luck finding the word "firearm" or "gun" in the statistics report. It is an incredibly rare event.

Also, what are you complaining about :D
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Unread postAuthor: Zeus » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:24 pm

On that topic, the media here is bitching about how many guns there are again, we've more than replaced every gun destroyed in the stealback after the Port Arthur shooting.

They said that "the guns aren't semi auto, but it only takes one shot". They didn't mention half of those guns are bolt action .22s, which is marginally legal compared to any modern centrefire.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:04 pm

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
MrCrowley wrote:This seems to happen too often here


No it doesn't.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_sta ... #mortality

Good luck finding the word "firearm" or "gun" in the statistics report. It is an incredibly rare event.
Compared to the U.S. and other countries, it is quite rare. But I didn't mean to say that NZ has a unusually high risk of people being killed by air rifles, or proper rifles for that matter, I just meant that it was surprising how many people have been killed by air rifles over the past few years (at least 3, IIRC). Does that statistics report even cover firearm deaths? There's at least a few homicides each year and many more accidental shootings. Here's an interesting bit of stats I found (from 2009): "recent information shows some 1.1 million firearms in NZ, of which 43% are rifles, 29% are shotguns, 25% are airguns and 3% are handguns".On the topic of NZ gun crime, I can highly recommend the film Out of the Blue, which is based on the Aramoana massacre. YouTube Trailer.

Also, what are you complaining about

We would also be #1 for the country that can have its freedom taken away the easiest since our army, airforce, and navy are so sh|t :D

If an invasion force was on the horizon, I bet that the U.S. will be saying "Oh, so now you want our nuclear ships to enter your waters?"
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:39 pm

Zeus wrote:marginally legal compared to any modern centrefire.


I presume you mean "marginally lethal". Depends in whose hands I guess, an accurate 22 with scope and suppressor is not to be taken lightly.

I just meant that it was surprising how many people have been killed by air rifles over the past few years (at least 3, IIRC).


I don't think that counts as "many", per capita it is an insignificant number. It's just that some tragedies are more visible than others. When you look at the figures though, there is not need to be alarmist.

Mr Anderson, a barrister who serves as the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation wrote:“During the 21st century, terrorism has been an insignificant cause of mortality in the United Kingdom. The annualised average of five deaths caused by terrorism in England and Wales over this period compares with total accidental deaths in 2010 of 17,201, including 123 cyclists killed in traffic accidents, 102 personnel killed in Afghanistan, 29 people drowned in the bathtub and five killed by stings from hornets, wasps and bees.”


How much public money is spent fighting wasps :)

Or was your point that it's surprising how people are killed by such "low power" weapons? The human body can be incredibly strong but also incredibly fragile. A 12 ft/lbs 0.177" air rifle will punch through 20mm of pine board with ease at close range, most parts of your skull do not offer anywhere near that level of resistance. Access to immediate medical care is also a factor.

Does that statistics report even cover firearm deaths? There's at least a few homicides each year and many more accidental shootings.


I presume that they are included under "assault".

[quote="AN ANALYSIS OF TRENDS IN FIREARM CASUALTIES IN
NEW ZEALAND
"]Airgun accidents
Langley et al (1996) investigated airgun accidents for the years 1979 - 1992. In this
fourteen year period they found that the airgun injury rate is less than 1.6 per 100,000.
These data are for 718 inpatient hospital discharges, of which 96% (689) were
unintentional, 2.2% (16) were intentional and 1.8% (13) were ‘undetermined’. Their
data shows an annual average of 51.3 airgun accidents.
“Airgun injuries, while not as serious as powder firearm injuries, account for a
significant personal and societal burden. The results suggest strategies aimed at
controlling these injuries, especially those pertaining to children, are in need of
review”, Langley et al (1996, p.117).
Airgun incidents continue to decline, from a three-year average of 1.65 per 100,000
(1979 - 1981) to 1.27 (1990 - 1992), Langley et al, 1996. Once again, the existence of
established training programmes in the basics of safe firearms handling is suggested
as the main reason for the decline.
Airgun accidents are more likely to involve people who have not benefited from NZ
Mountain Safety Council firearm safety instruction programmes. This is because for
those aged 18 years or over, a firearm licence is not required. Although some
encouragement is given to prospective, non-firearm licensed purchasers to undergo
such training, many choose not to undergo these brief but valuable courses. The
completion of this course is mandatory for any intending firearm licence applicant.[/quote]

Not enough injuries to make it a pressing issue I would think. Another interesting point:

The wounding potential of firearms will be explored later along with some comment
about “lethality”. This is the ‘risk of death’ but is sometimes obscured by emotive
issues arising from the treatment afforded this topic by the entertainment industry.


Since most people get their information about firearm injuries from movies, it's no wonder public perception is so out of sync with reality.

We would also be #1 for the country that can have its freedom taken away the easiest since our army, airforce, and navy are so small


I've seen some New Zealand historical battle documentaries and it would seem that convenient ghost armies, living trees and magic eagles would step in to save the day :)
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Last edited by jackssmirkingrevenge on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:49 pm

We would also be #1 for the country that can have its freedom taken away the easiest since our army, airforce, and navy are so sh|t
who is going to invade your country and why ?

I would be scared as hell if I was invading a country full of men who are said to be sheepsh######


:D
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Children are the future

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Unread postAuthor: Zeus » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:19 pm

I did indeed mean marginally lethal, had quite a night last night, and the day before that, and the day before that... Remember kids, 3 day benders make you make silly mistakes online.

No doubts a .22 is lethal, but it's really just a heart/CNS hit that'll kill, it won't turn your organs to pulp like a decent centrefire. I've killed a lot of different things with a .22, and I've seen a boar take two 3" slugs, then get dropped by a .22.
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Unread postAuthor: jsefcik » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:59 pm

Didnt wanna start a thread over it but when I charge up my piston valve a tiny bit of air leaks out my barrel ,, I was thinking something on my sealing face

Any ideas?
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:02 pm

Or was your point that it's surprising how people are killed by such "low power" weapons?
Sort of haha. You're questioning my statement a lot more than it was intended to be :lol:

I just meant that more people are being killed by airguns than you would think; it's not freakin' difficult to wait for your mate to clear the range before shooting. Maybe the media is just reporting on these events more than they used to so it seems like people being killed by airguns is a new problem.

That's the totality of my statement, it has nothing to do with media perception of dangerous activities that aren't actually so dangerous when compared to other things nor did I intend it to be a comment on the rate of firearm/air gun deaths in NZ compared to the rest of the world :wink:

convenient ghost armies, living trees and magic eagles

Hahaha, that was great! I actually watched the trilogy last month for the first time since they were released, I thought it was pretty awesome but the last hour of the third film always ruins it a bit. Still have no idea how Peter Jackson convinced a Hollywood studio to invest all that money, film it in NZ, film the trilogy simultaneously, and start production three years before the first film would come out.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:46 am

MrCrowley wrote:I just meant that more people are being killed by airguns than you would think; it's not freakin' difficult to wait for your mate to clear the range before shooting. Maybe the media is just reporting on these events more than they used to so it seems like people being killed by airguns is a new problem.


Definitely not a new problem, I think most of it stems from the perception that airguns are low powered and therefore not that dangerous, leading to more nonchalance to safety practices which would be respected with firearms.

Unfortunately media hysteria leads to knee jerk reactions, what happened in Scotland is a good case in point.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... nts-878242

These things happen because this rhetoric is allowed to be effective... because we live in a feminised society!

*ahem*

Image

That's the totality of my statement, it has nothing to do with media perception of dangerous activities that aren't actually so dangerous when compared to other things nor did I intend it to be a comment on the rate of firearm/air gun deaths in NZ compared to the rest of the world :wink:


hehe sorry for "jumping the gun", I've been conditioned to respond in this thread with a flurry of vitriol and statistics :D

Hahaha, that was great!


They're all pretty well done :) I love the renaming of the cast, reminds me of Charlie Brooker's rechristening of the gladiators here :D :D :D

Michael Hutchence! lol

Still have no idea how Peter Jackson convinced a Hollywood studio to invest all that money, film it in NZ, film the trilogy simultaneously, and start production three years before the first film would come out.


... because nerds with relatively high paying jobs and no social life have high disposable income ;)
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:38 am

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:Unfortunately media hysteria leads to knee jerk reactions, what happened in Scotland is a good case in point.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... nts-878242

Air gun owners will need licence in Scotland. Is your example of media hysteria an example in itself due to the misleading headline? :D

I thought it was a bit extreme to completely out-law airguns in a country like Scotland, which surely has a lot of rural farmers keen on taking care of pests. A licence isn't too bad, if it were similar here (it is if you're under 18.) I would've got a firearms licence years ago as it would be a significant motivating factor. It is quite over-the-top though, a hassle for farmers and the like; maybe it should only apply to cities and suburbs.

The reasoning behind it all is bloody ridiculous though. It sounds like two parents who are desperate to find a meaning and reason for their son's life. It's just a matter of time before someone's kid has an anti-trampoline law named after them :roll:

edit:
A German student "mooned" a group of Hell's Angels and hurled a puppy at them before escaping on a stolen bulldozer
Any three of those actions could probably warrant a headline of their own :shock:
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:35 am

MrCrowley wrote:Air gun owners will need licence in Scotland. Is your example of media hysteria an example in itself due to the misleading headline? :D

I thought it was a bit extreme to completely out-law airguns in a country like Scotland, which surely has a lot of rural farmers keen on taking care of pests. A licence isn't too bad, if it were similar here (it is if you're under 18.) I would've got a firearms licence years ago as it would be a significant motivating factor. It is quite over-the-top though, a hassle for farmers and the like; maybe it should only apply to cities and suburbs.


It is not as misleading as you think. From the BBC article:

Under the new scheme, anyone wanting to own an air gun would need to demonstrate they had a legitimate reason for doing so.


This is completely arbitrary and as good as a ban for collectors.

From the father:

Andy added: "There is no need for someone living in a housing scheme to have an air rifle in their home."


Need.

Oleg Volk recently wrote about it on his blog: http://olegvolk.net/blog/2013/01/06/the ... s-fallacy/

The reasoning behind it all is bloody ridiculous though. It sounds like two parents who are desperate to find a meaning and reason for their son's life. It's just a matter of time before someone's kid has an anti-trampoline law named after them :roll:


Yup, the fears of the few become the inconveniece the many.

Transcript (not verbatim) from an excellent Mitchell & Webb sound radio sketch:

Radio guy: The latest statistics from a government body make very surprising reading for residents of the reservoir, canal, and gravel-pit infested Westchester area Over the last 12 months no one from the Westchester region has drowned in lake, river, or pond. Good news you might say. Well you'd be wrong according to local man Neil Tender who joins me in the studio.

Neil: Good evening. I'm trying to draw attention to the massive waste of public money that's led to a situation where absolutely nobody in a whole year drowns by accident. What that must mean in terms of fencing, warning signs, swimming lessons, people coming into school to tell children to be careful, lifebelts and the maintenance of waterside paths is just staggering.

There has clearly been a massive overspend because in any conurbation of up to half a million - such as Westchester - that's run with the proper priorities, at least 2 or 3 people should drown every year.

Radio guy: But surely the fact that no one has drowned is a sign that just enough money has been spent on anti-drowning measures.

Neil: I'm afraid there's a huge flaw in that logic. It's like when people don't cook enough food for a dinner party and it all gets eaten and they say they've judged it really well and cooked just enough. No, there should be some left over just to show that everyone's full. Similarly a small number of drownees demonstrates that there hasn't been a vast and irresponsible council overspend on safety provisions.

Radio guy: Surely one death by drowning is one too many?

That's a ridiculous thing to say. Think of the the number of old people who will freeze to death without a heating grant, or schoolchildren who'll get run over because there are no traffic lights, because of all the money lavished on keeping the 2 or 3 most drown-susceptible Westchesterians alive.

Do those people deserve that money? More than a pensioner who spent their life working, watching where they're going, and being careful not to fall into water? More than a trans-sexual waiting for the operation that might keep him/her the right side of suicide? More than the 40 people in Westchester last year who died falling down cliffs?

What I'm saying is that everyone has to die, and in a balanced fair and democratic society some of them should drown.


I find it hard to argue against the above. It sounds morally repugnant to have to put a value on human life, but ultimately whether consciously or not, it's something you have to do.



HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

If you're going to go crazy, do it with style! Ten points :D
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:02 am

What I'm saying is that everyone has to die, and in a balanced fair and democratic society some of them should drown
Brilliant :D

I find it hard to argue against the above
It's pretty much how things are now. Council money goes to heaps of different areas, some more important than others, with the knowledge that it is more fair to distribute money over multiple areas than to just solve the problems of a few.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:22 am

MrCrowley wrote:It's pretty much how things are now. Council money goes to heaps of different areas, some more important than others, with the knowledge that it is more fair to distribute money over multiple areas than to just solve the problems of a few.


It leads to the wider question of pretending that all human life has equal value though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

I really, really recommend this series of lectures on death by Shelly Kagan:

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/phil-176

This is the youtube playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... ature=plcp

This is the sort of stuff I have running in the background when I'm machining :D
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:16 am

It leads to the wider question of pretending that all human life has equal value though
In some cases, yes. Most cases it would be non-discriminatory (such as fencing a public waterway), depending on the definition of 'value'. I think we also pretend for ethical reasons (among others), as it's a very slippery slope if we stop pretending. I can't really see a radical alternative being put in to action as there are far too many ways to interpret what constitutes a more valuable life (and even more problems when it comes to implementing the ideals behind this belief). Someone may be far richer than another person, and own a business that employs thousands more, but that value is just a construct of our current society; worthless under alternate circumstances.

The different variations of the trolley problem just highlight the problems facing anyone attempting to put a value on human life as social policy. I wouldn't throw the fat man over the bridge to save 5 people but I would probably divert the trolley to hit the fat man instead of the 5 people. The differences are subtle but they are differences. Likewise, I wouldn't sacrifice the man so he can donate his organs to the 5 people; even if he were homeless and the other 5 extremely prominent people.

How things are at the moment seem to be: the most ethical; the most reasonable; easiest to implement in practice; the most safe, in terms of the risk of a society collapsing due to social policy on humans and human life; and, the most safe bet in terms of how quickly a society can evolve and advance under different social constructs.

I know saying this is whiggish but 'how things are at the moment' may be due to a current, and temporary, stabilization of ideals. We can go a bit further right, or a bit further left, but adding value to human life would be a radical leap in social policy that would require further justification to stabilise it at an arbitrary position and prevent the possibility of it spiralling out of control.

Just to be clear, when I say 'how things are at the moment' I mean the general consensus on social issues by most of the civilised world. So this encapsulates democracy, monarchy, right-wing, left-wing, socialist, capitalist, etc. What I'm comparing these ideals too is a very extreme example at the complete opposite end of the spectrum where each life holds an ever-changing value and laws are enforced that discriminate against low-value people to benefit society as a whole; even if this causes suffering or death in some instances. I know this isn't necessarily what you're specifically talking about, I'm just taking the idea and running with it to the extreme. The same thing could be done back the opposite way with socialist examples that go even further than contemporary examples of communism.

I couldn't really gauge what sort of thing you were suggesting (hence the above clarification) so, if you have any thoughts that don't fall under the arguments of my extreme interpretation of human-value, feel free to ignore the above :D
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