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Hydrogen dry tube configuration

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Hydrogen dry tube configuration

Unread postAuthor: Alster370 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:16 pm

From what I can see, there is an obvious problem with this setup, and it makes me wonder why nobody has corrected it. A normal dry cell utilises both sides of its metal. However a dry tube uses only ~half of its total surface area of SS for Hydrogen production. This is because the inner surface area of the first tube and the outer surface area of the last tube are not immersed in the solution. by sleeving those pipes in clear pvc tubing, all the possible surface area is being utilised for hydrogen production.

Image

Im also unsure about which to go for. a dry tube or dry cell setup. a dry tube in my opinion can be sealed more easily and with a variety of different materials. However it doesn't have as much surface area as plates and is more costly per square inch. :?

Input from Hydrogen cell owners would be especially appreciated. :D
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Last edited by Alster370 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postAuthor: Alster370 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:18 pm

Bump: nobody has any suggestions/thoughts on this? :?
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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:38 pm

I'd love to comment, but I cannot understand your diagram or the aim of this device. I've seen people use these to produce a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, but they are usually quite jittery about anything greater than atmospheric pressure. Also, a correction: I'm pretty sure the electrodes are not catalysts.

Why a dry anything? What the heck is HY? Do you mean hydrogen? Or do you mean H<sub>y</sub>?
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:30 pm

The dry tube still works because there are no edged exposed to electrolyte. The whole point of a dry cell (as opposed to a wet cell) is that you don't loose current to edges or corners.

Dry cells use metal more efficiently because they are generally multi-layered; if you have 10 layers, 8 of these are using both sides. You could reproduce this in tube form with many concentric tubes.

I would advise making a rectangular dry cell because stainless sheet is cheaper than stainless tubes. You will need more gaskets, but they should be easier to construct. You will need to drill holes in the top/bottom of slots.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQOxWXRsLB4[/youtube]

Note: I am not one of the fools who think HHO produces free energy. It converts electricity (and water) to hydrogen and oxygen.
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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:43 pm

ramses wrote:The dry tube still works because there are no edged exposed to electrolyte. The whole point of a dry cell (as opposed to a wet cell) is that you don't loose current to edges or corners.
That makes no sense to me. The idea of "current leakage" seems to postulate that electrons will randomly leave the cell through one of the plates and somehow not cause the desired electrochemical reaction.
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:54 pm

Based on the video, the current will skip over the neutral plates, and leak to the other powered electrode. In HV terms. the current is "arcing" around the "insulator".

The effect is that the "leaked" current is flowing through the equivalent of one cell gap at the (higher than optimal) supply voltage. If it went through the other plates, there would be 5+ cells in series, each seeing a fraction of the supply voltage, but still enough voltage to cause the reaction.

I'm by no means an expert, but this seems plausible.
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Unread postAuthor: Alster370 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:07 pm

but I cannot understand your diagram or the aim of this device
It improves the dry tube setup most people use by using all of the available surface area, increasing output.

What the heck is HY?
Hydrogen, i thought it was an obvious abbreviation but i apologise if it caused confusion.


I think i will go for +NNNNN- setup as then the voltage will be 2v for each plate which I believe is around the right level for maximum efficiency. I would like to use mine for all sorts of things, whether its to power my upcoming go kart or fuel a combustion/hybrid. I could also use it for welding, given enough output.
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Last edited by Alster370 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:10 pm

Ah. I do understand what is meant by "current leakage" now. Thanks.

The correct chemical symbol for hydrogen is simply "H," this avoids confusion and mitigates language barriers.
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Alster370 wrote:
but I cannot understand your diagram or the aim of this device
It improves the dry tube setup most people use by using all of the available surface area, increasing output.



No matter what you do, you will ALWAYS have two surfaces without current flowing through them. One if you use a solid rod for the center.

I will remind you that sheet stainless is cheaper for a given surface area:
sheet

tube
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Gas production is related to the number of electrons that flow. One side or 2 side, what's the difference?

There are limits to the current flow density measured in Amps per Square inch. The two sided cylinder has more square inches for the length, so a one side metal plate would need to be twice the length or width for the same area for the same current. Production should be the same.

I've heard people talk about the edge effect. I'm not sure if this is theory or reality. Many brown's gas generators use many plates. This provides lots of edges. Traditional wet cell lead acid batteries also used alternating plates. The argument of edge loss is still pretty much an unanswered scientific measurement at this time. (unless the answer is there and I have not seen it yet)

All testing I have seen on the gas generation where the gas is generated by power drawn from the engine it supplies have shown it is a loss. There is anecdotal evidence some have gotten better than unity, but all fixed load testing I have seen on generator sets has shown the additional load to generate the electricity is not fully offset by the added power of burning the gas. Claims in vehicles is highly subjective to driving style.

A fixed load generator set is reproducible. For example a 3600 Watt generator running on just gas while running a 2KW water heater on just gas or the same setup with a 500 Watt Brown's gas cell added. Most of the testing I have seen shows the gas cell running for less time on the same amount of gas.

There are some early tests on Diesel sets that hold promise as it pertains to the burn rate and energy released, but the result is inconclusive at this time.
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:48 pm

But only one side of the tube would be used if no neutral electrodes were used.

The edge leakage would be equivalent to a small cell in parallel with the cell that was actually intended to be connected. It is my understanding that electrolysis at 12V (or whatever) is less efficient than electrolysis at 2V (in terms of liters/watt). I don't think there's a dispute that the neutral plates are effective.
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Unread postAuthor: saefroch » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:19 pm

Electrolysis at a higher voltage would be less efficient, because for electricity P=IV, and only the current affects the rate of reaction for electrolysis. Voltage just determines which reactions take place.

Also, resistance is lower if the cells are wired in parallel instead of series. Lower resistance for the same voltage gives a higher current.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:27 pm

A "Neutral electrode" is essentially splitting a cell to make 2 cells in series. The "Edge leakage" is when the current does not go through the neutral plate leaving just one cell in part of the circuit.

2 cells in series at 5 amps is the same as 2 cells in parallel with 2X the surface area at 10 amps. Only when they share a common electrolyte does the "edge leakage" bypass part of one cell.

The two side of the neutral plate is the negative for one cell and the positive for the second cell. I hope this helps.
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