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The Official: "Things that piss you off" Thread!!

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Unread postAuthor: Gepard » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:05 pm

How come everyone in this (part of the) thread is telling me there is evidence that God exists, yet no one can specfically give me an example?

Michael
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Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:09 pm

Gepard wrote:How come everyone in this (part of the) thread is telling me there is evidence that God exists, yet no one can specfically give me an example?

Michael

does it realy matter weather they give examples or not? you will obviously not be swayed by sombody on the internet that you dont even know anyway.
So go to theopia if you want to bitcch about god.
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searching for a modern day savior from another place,inclined toward charity,everyone's begging for an answer,without regard to validity,the searching never ends,it goes on and on for eternity
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Unread postAuthor: Gepard » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:19 pm

Honestly? Yeah. I'll happily be swayed if someone can give me an example of God - I don't care if they're on the side of the world or some random guy on the street I meet. I don't have a problem with Christianity but when people say that God exists and there is proof - I'd like to know what is that 'proof' as would solve probably one of the oldest arguments going.

And I can't see it being solved by a SpudFiles member so I'm led to believe they are misguided.....I'd love to be proved wrong yet it seems no one can.....

I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant - but it's something that pisses me off (to get back to the thread lol) when people talk BS.

Michael
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Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:23 pm

Gepard wrote:Honestly? Yeah. I'll happily be swayed if someone can give me an example of God - I don't care if they're on the side of the world or some random guy on the street I meet. I don't have a problem with Christianity but when people say that God exists and there is proof - I'd like to know what is that 'proof' as would solve probably one of the oldest arguments going.

And I can't see it being solved by a SpudFiles member so I'm led to believe they are misguided.....I'd love to be proved wrong yet it seems no one can.....

I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant - but it's something that pisses me off (to get back to the thread lol) when people talk BS.

Michael

god related argument piss me off. i respect your oppinion, but could we steer away from this type of thing?
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:32 pm

paaiyan wrote:And girls, if joanna decides to join that is.

I'm never one to miss out on a good argument... wait, I mean... discussion... that's it.

So I shall now put you all off the discussion with a very post:

Who here has heard of Occam's (Or Ockham's) Razor?
In it's simplest (translated)form: "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity", which is often quoted as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

If this is applied, the question is changed - "Is a world formed by a god, or by chance the simpler likelihood?"
Please note, that is NOT "Is a world formed by chance, or a world formed by God more likely?"
The answer is fairly plain - Between "World" and "World + God", the option on it's own has to be simpler.

However, Occam's Razor is not a hard and fast rule, so we cannot say that this proves the question by any manner or means.

Some of you may have come across Richard Dawkin's new book, "The God Delusion". What I say here is essentially a cut down version of one of the chapters of the book.
Take the Theory of Evolution (with a meal, and plenty of fluids. For best results, you should not excercise for 2 hours prior to, or after taking.)
Darwin himself admitted that if any case could be found of any creature or part of a creature was "Irreducibly complex" (the case being there would be no way for it to come about by multiple miniscule changes - and therefore could only have been designed by an intelligent being), then this would prove a Creator existed.

Many examples of this "Holy Grail" of creationism have been put forwards - including the eye and wing - but these examples have been disproved.
There are many cases of "half-eyes" in the natural world - creatures with eyes like pinhole cameras that give blurred images, or even just as simple as an eye that can only give the owner an idea of general illumination (e.g. Is it night time or day time? Am I in the open, or under a rock?)

Now, if there were an indeniable case of an "irreducibly" complex organ or creature, this would have to prove one of the following:
1)The existence of a God.
2)A scientist with a big genetic laboratory created this, then let it free.
3)Aliens messing around with us, and leaving a load of creatures behind.
4)Absolute pure chance resulting from genetic mutation caused by cosmic radiation or similar.

Discarding 4 because the chances are longer than the Trans-Siberian railway, and considering 2 and 3 to be essentially the same thing, we are left with:

1) God exists (outside the universe)
2) Someone else with the ability to generate beings to their own design exists (within the universe)

Now, people will argue either way over this. But here is the clincher... If God exists, must he himself not be extremely complex - and presumably, Irreducibly so?
To have a creator, you must have a reason for the creator's presence.
This could be:
1) God has existed infinitely long, and has no beginning and no end.
2) God has been created by some manner or means - either by chance, or another creator.

If you agree to 2, the chances are again, very long of it being sheer concidence, so therefore - if God has a creator, then how did that creator come into being?
You eventually either hit a barrier where either a creator has existed infinitely long, or that a creator exists by chance (which with enough creators, becomes increasingly likely)
But if you have a huge array of Gods, why not just a huge number of universes, and just chance bringing everything together nice and kosher?

The dilemma continues. But by Occam's Razor, the non-existence of God has to be the simpler solution.

Personally, I subscribe to a totally different theory - the simulation theory. For this, the universe is a simulation - not quite like the Matrix, as you are simulated too, but that's a reasonable analogy.

If you are going at this point: "What? I don't want to be a simulation!", then here is a list of three points - of which one must be true, and the other's false. (Advanced society means one with the technology to be able to create a virtual world as complex as ours).

1) No advanced society has yet existed, because either the universe is too young, or all societies thus far have been destroyed before becoming advanced
2) No advanced society wants to simulate another world.
3) We are almost certainly simulated.

Thinking about it, #1 is pretty unlikely - someone somewhere must have adavanced beyond our "primitive" society.
#2 has already been disproven - need I say more than the words "The Sims"?

Therefore, #3 is the most likely answer. And therefore, there is a creator of the universe (because computers don't just spring up out of nowhere) - probably some spotty little alien teenager - who himself is probably simulated - and their maker is probably simulated, as is theirs...

Is your head hurting yet? So, the most likely situations are the following:
1) an almost infinite array of Gods.
2) an almost infinite array of parrellel universes, some of which "work", more of which "don't".
3) an almost infinite array of serial universes, each one simulated within the last, like a huge branching tree splitting off.

As I said, I agree with 3.
Others may like 4) Singular God, and 5) Singular Universe + a lot of chance, but those are very unlikely.

Now you've all had to stumble off for migrane pills, how about we go onto a different subject?
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:14 pm

I hate space, its too confusing, How did it get here? What was there before it? How did atoms and what not come about so animals and humans could be formed over 4 billion years? etc
No offence but saying god did this all seems like taking the easy way out, there has to be a better explanation then god, because who created him? How did he create us? Who created 'heaven' or where ever he lives these days so he could create earth and living organisms in the first place?
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:53 pm

Yeah, it's all overwhelming - especially when you consider that when you step out at night, if you were to perch a grain of rice on the end of your finger and hold it up to the sky at arms length... that grain covers about 10,000 galaxies (too faint for the naked eye to see), or maybe more - whereever you point it.

How many times could you fit that grain of rice into the space of the sky?

Now think that you can see less than half of the sky at any one time.
A quick bit of maths says that makes for roughly 7.7 billion galaxies in the universe, each one made up of many tens or hundreds of millions of stars, some of which will have their own planetary system, and each of those planets unique with their own atmospheres, topography, and perhaps - life.

Kinda makes you feel small, don't it?

Or to put it another way, the observable universe's mass has been estimated at about 10<sup>49</sup> tonnes. Assuming a human is 65kg, that makes you about one 154 trillion trillion trillionth of the universe by mass. (An American trillion, so a million million - or an English billion)

By volume, the (observable) universe has a radius of 3 x 10<sup>23</sup> km. If a human has a volume of about 0.09 cubic metres, that makes you a one 1250 million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillionth of the universe by volume.


But I find those numbers mean little to people - whereas the rice on the end of your finger idea really blows peoples minds.
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Unread postAuthor: potatoflinger » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:28 pm

Gepard wrote:How come everyone in this (part of the) thread is telling me there is evidence that God exists, yet no one can specfically give me an example?

Michael

PM me if you want some examples, i'll find some good ones.
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Unread postAuthor: rednecktatertosser » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:14 pm

Gepard wrote:How come everyone in this (part of the) thread is telling me there is evidence that God exists, yet no one can specfically give me an example?

Michael


If you want some evidence then look here and here

If you want more feel free to PM me as well.
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Unread postAuthor: Gepard » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:43 pm

Neither of those is solid concrete evidence that God exists- and there isn't any, it doesn't exist. They're just theories that use bits of information to support them That guy would not stand there for 50mins lecturing people and putting forward a debate if there was evidence.

You also can't say that just because something is extremely complex it must have been created by God. That shows you are extremely naive and narrow minded. I'm not saying that the Big Bang happened I'm not saying God made the world - the only thing I'm saying is that parts of the bible aren't watertight and for something is supposed to be 'perfect' it doesn't make sense. I'm not opposed to Christianity - hell some of my favourite bands are Switchfoot, Newsboys and Casting Crowns.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence to suggest either theory. The Bible can be interpreted many ways and even used to contradict itself. This argument is the oldest one going and it still wouldn't be going if their was scientific proof that to support either theory.

Now please feel free to tell me I'm wrong but I will say no more on this subject.

Michael
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Unread postAuthor: rednecktatertosser » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:46 pm

Well, i belive that there is a god, that is how i was raised, i will not change my beliefs, however i do see some logic behind your opinion.

Seeing isnt believeing, believing is seeing.
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Unread postAuthor: mtronic » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:34 am

maybe this thread should be renamed to religion V science or theories that flip ur mind :lol:

what I find amazing is that when there is a nuclear explosion, every element know to man is created and destroyed in an instant. Its then even crazier to know that our Sun has millions of these explosions on its surface every second.

But the biggest mind f#ck is a black hole. Where do they go? If it starts somewhere it has to end somewhere. It can't just turn into nothing, otherwise all the maths known to man is wrong.

my head hurts thinking about it. :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: rednecktatertosser » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:34 pm

Well, As I understand black holes they desrtoy any matter that goes into them, although, they would still need to go some where.

Thanks, now im gonna be thinking about that for the rest of the night, then ill fall asleep and forget it.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:10 am

Black hole is a misnomer - There is no "hole". Hollywood has done a good job of spreading misinformation about black holes.
A black hole is simply superconcentrated matter, which sucks in extra matter that gets too close to it. Nothing is destroyed, nothing goes anywhere - and nothing can escape.

Imagine a strong magnet - it "sucks in" ferromagnetic materials that get close to it, but the steel/iron/etc. doesn't disappear or go anywhere. It's still there, just now attached to the magnet.

You can however get singularities. These are edges to space, which DO lead out of the 3 basic dimensions. These can be produced by some black holes (but are not a black hole themselves).
If you have two singularities linked to each other, it's known as a wormhole. If you don't have another singularity to link to, that's when it gets weird - it even might lead to a parallel universe...
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Unread postAuthor: lukemc » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:20 am

joannaardway wrote:... that's when it gets weird...


Like normal life isn't weired enough....

and for all you arguing about god, im not going to preach my beliefs on you but suppose you saw someone with a watch. you ask where they got it and they respond that it was floating particles the smashed together and became a very nice watch. this would be very very hard to beleive. it would be easier to beleive that someone designed and carefuly made the watch.

That is why religion is widely used. it is just such a terrible coincidence that we are here it makes it easy to beleive in a god or a higher being
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