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Unread postAuthor: ShowNoMercy » Tue May 22, 2007 6:36 pm

Not to burst any bubbles but our country was founded but non god fearing individuals and god or whatever you pray to was not in the equation. And besides god is a crutch the weak use to feel better after sinning. Not to bring up another random argument. :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue May 22, 2007 7:04 pm

Actually they were God fearing individuals.Although not Christian outright(for the most part)they did believe in a higher authority.Whatever that may have been to them.Believe it or not James Madison was educated under the tutorship of John Witherspoon a devout Christian.Biblical principles were a huge part of life at that time(Great Awakening had ended in the 1740's).To say that God was not a part of the founding of our country is plain stupidity.

Religion is a crutch the ignorant use to feel good after sinning,God is not.No way you can shrug off the creator of the universe.See the God I know and you will see that I have a living relationship with the one who started it all.And when I sin I know that I have no excuse for it,but none the less I am still forgiven.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue May 22, 2007 7:11 pm

ShowNoMercy wrote:Not to burst any bubbles but our country was founded but non god fearing individuals and god or whatever you pray to was not in the equation. And besides god is a crutch the weak use to feel better after sinning. Not to bring up another random argument. :wink:


Allow me to make one comment, if you're calling me weak because of my beliefs, you just walk, drive, or fly on down to central Oklahoma and we'll see about that. You guys don't need to bring God into a gun control debate, it's not going to do anyone any good.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue May 22, 2007 9:41 pm

Amen Paaiyan, this is a debate best left alone.I admire your beliefs(fro one Brother to the other)
PS:where in Oklahoma?My grandma lives in Clairmore.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue May 22, 2007 9:58 pm

Right around Oklahoma City.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Wed May 23, 2007 6:23 am

God wants people to have items that bring nasty pointy death?

I'm sorry, but I think that bringing God into a gun control debate is pretty silly - that's basically saying that God's opinion is that someone's right to own a gun is equal to someone else's right to life. And that's patently stupid.

Really, God and guns should not be in the same discussion.

Quoting the 2nd amendment is useless for a discussion about whether you can still justify the "rights" given, not listed, there.

And as for it being a "God given right" - when you actually get and successfully record a phone call or other conversation with God, with signed proof from 3 different experts and their attorneys that the recording cannot possibly have been faked and statements from 5 witnesses who were there at the time who swear under oath that it definately did occur exactly like that and it could only possibly have been God, in which God indeniably says "Sure, guns are fine. Go nuts." or words to that effect, then you can claim it as a God given right.
Oh, and throw in a signed photo of God if you actually meet with him directly.

Until then, you are speculating on the will of Gods, which is not for mortals (or even the several immortals I happen to know) to do. However... at some risk of being labeled a hypocrite, I'd say that any all-loving deity would be happier to avoid the death of their followers than give guns the OK, given that the term "all-loving" logically would place life above death.

So, until the time that you get that photo and recording (and the corresponding legal paperwork), then please keep regilion out of the debate.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed May 23, 2007 6:37 am

Fair points, but look at it this way - assuming you believe in god, man was given his bare hands and a brain to think with. With those alone, man is perfectly capable of killing. A gun is simply a man-made extension of one's hands, if god didn't want us to have guns we probably would never have developed opposable thumbs :roll:

While we're on the subject of god, ponder this logical dilema:

Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Wed May 23, 2007 12:41 pm

Jack(in response to quote),The Bible states that God's reason is far above our own.We can't understand him.Which in all reality is a very valid point,considering that we discover new things everyday.To believe that we can figure out God is impossible.Try to teach a chicken Calculus, it just won't happen.Man is not on par with God.So our intellect, as much as we try to tell ourselves how great it is, pales in comparison to God's own.We see the world in a view of limited power and as the creation, not as the creator of unlimited power.I prefer to leave the mysteries of God to Him.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Wed May 23, 2007 12:59 pm

I'll make sure I'm clear on this - I'm not Christian, but I used God as an example because it was both used in the first place, and it has fairly well-known background.

My own religion is much more minor than that (minor enough that when asked about my religion, I will say I'm athestic to avoid having to explain it to the many that don't know of it), doesn't have the same structure as Christianity, and so doesn't have many of the common religious paradoxes.

I won't go on, because:
a) I could bore your brain out of the bottom of your skull
b) I'd probably offend everyone.
c) It would take the thread further off-topic.
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Wed May 23, 2007 1:06 pm

Why is it that when one of these debate threads pops up it always turns to religion reguardless of the orginal issue?

As for my 2 cents: I believe in whatever can be proven.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Wed May 23, 2007 1:25 pm

The huge issue I will always have with religion is that gods do not exist and when that is said to a believer they will always say that god X does exist because if of course they said otherwise they wouldn't be a believer.

It's a argument that cannot be resolved.

I'm perfectly happy to accept that people find something in believing in a god but belief has no place in fact based decisions and responsibility will always be on people to decide what they will.

If scriptures help in making decisions in some peoples life then thats fine by me too. They were written to help people do exactly that and parts of it still make sense today. Some don't of course but hey thats a changing world for you...

A god should never be used as an argument factor. Use religion to help make a decision yes but come back with something tangible like a figure or a fact that can be presented as evidence for why in you want to say or do that.

I mean, this kind of thing I could never respect:
God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'

I'd never do anything someone suggested because god told them it was a good idea. Bring me facts and I'll respect a decision.
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Unread postAuthor: beebs111 » Wed May 23, 2007 2:13 pm

i am going to hate my self for this, but, here we go: i do not believe in any organized religion, the bible or any of that stuff. i dont care what you believe in, dont flame me lol. the christian church and every other organized religion with all these guidelines were created by people, human beings with human urges, beleifs and motives. that i why i refuse to follow an organized religion. the people who run them are often corrupt and greedy and after something from you. if there actually is a god, he would not want people to have to sacrifice large portions of their money and life to worship his greatness. my whole take on the spiritual thing, is that there might be something or someone, maybe just the idea of chances happening, not necessarilarily some guy sitting on a throne on one of the moons of jupiter, just the force, like good/bad luck. just live your life the way you think is right. it is not anyone's job to try to convince another person what to believe, it always ends very badly. if you choose to believe that there is some old guy who looks like zeus mandating what every single person on the earth does, then fine, if not then fine. it is none of anyone's business.

just to make life more interesting for me, who here thinks that there is life on other planets other than earth, and if so, does god apply to them?
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Wed May 23, 2007 3:05 pm

just to make life more interesting for me, who here thinks that there is life on other planets other than earth, and if so, does god apply to them?

Of course God would apply to them.Why would a creator stop with one planet.Lets give ours as an example:The 2 largest religions Christianity and Islam both state that humans messed up in the beginning.So why would a Creator(God) decide one lowly planet that rebelled was enough to hang it up for eternity.Do you quit once something out of your control fails?I don't.
Religion is one thing that I don't believe in,they are indeed human creations.The Faith is not.I'm proud to say I'm a Christian. I say I am a Christian because that was the name given to the group of followers of Christ.I don't call myself a Baptist or a Catholic.These are creations based on human interpretation of Scripture(yes, I believe the Bible to be true that is another debate, not for now).So to not be misconstrued with the corrupt nature of man created Institutions.I relate myself to the Faith and not the denomination.Therefore making me a follower of Christ.Hope that explains a little in to my belief on how Christianity is supposed to function.And finally We were created for the glorification of God.Therefore We should dictate a large portion of our life to God,but not in the manner of just money.Like any good father God enjoys our company not our wealth.Glorification to God is doing excellence in all as if you are doing it for God himself.
Beebs,I hope you come to a realization later in life that not all in life is dictated by Man.Good luck in your quest for truth.

All right I'm done,better go start a Theopia topic.And Joannaardway,I'd be interested in hearing about your religion.I find beliefs an interesting subject.See you at Theopia.
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Unread postAuthor: cdheller » Wed May 23, 2007 5:28 pm

Hotwired wrote:I just have to say something about that...

You're saying GOD gives you the right to own and use firearms?

I may agree and disagree with fact based arguments but theres a problem right there when someone drags something totally intangible like religion into a debate.


I think you misunderstood the differences I was trying to point out

wiki Definition of inalienable

The term inalienable rights (or unalienable rights) refers to a set of human rights that are in some sense fundamental, are not awarded by human power, and cannot be surrendered.

part of the United States Declaration of Independence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . ."

Now that we have some basics down the differences i was trying to point out are.

[[ correct me if I am wrong]

"the subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions, and as allowed by Law."
from English bill of rights 1689

as allowed by Law,,,in my mind means being able to disallow

a person in england is a subject with privileges given and taken by their rulers

A person in the u.s. is a citizen of a republic with rights recognized by elected representatives
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Unread postAuthor: beebs111 » Wed May 23, 2007 5:31 pm

thanks, my only point in that, was that god is defenitely not walking around the earth, and god did not write the bible, a person wrote the bible. wether or not someone chooses to believe that god was part of that, well, i guess thats what faith is......
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