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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:25 am

Have you tried looking at eastern block mil surplus?Most of those guns can be had inexpensively and fitted with aftermarket parts to smooth out the operation.By the time you buy the XD you can have one of those nicely tuned.I know the cz-52 fits the bill of concealable and a good workhouse.Although over penetration is sometimes an issue with the 7.62x25.The ammo is cheap, good for target shooting, and ballistics as close to a rifle as handguns get.Or I hear good things about the old markarovs.But they seem to have more lemons in the bunch than CZ's guns.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:53 pm

goathunter wrote:Have you tried looking at eastern block mil surplus?Most of those guns can be had inexpensively and fitted with aftermarket parts to smooth out the operation.By the time you buy the XD you can have one of those nicely tuned.I know the cz-52 fits the bill of concealable and a good workhouse.Although over penetration is sometimes an issue with the 7.62x25.The ammo is cheap, good for target shooting, and ballistics as close to a rifle as handguns get.Or I hear good things about the old markarovs.But they seem to have more lemons in the bunch than CZ's guns.


Why not, the XD is after all basically the Croatian HS-2000 and IIRC is still actually manufactured in Croatia.

You're right about the penetrative abilities of the 7.62x25, velocity is a big part of good penetration and these bullets are quite faster than most pistol rounds - the box of truth speaks - previous pages show the other pistol rounds that *didn't* penetrate the helmet :shock:
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:13 pm

@Goathunter,

I've researched the 7.62x25 cartridge a bit, and although it does have some advantages (such as it's ability to negotiate through light body armor, and inexpensive surplus ammo), I don't want to go that route for a few reasons:

A) hard to find the ammo some places, pretty much have to buy it online bulk or at gun shows, as opposed to .357 or .45 which are both widely available.
B) if anything goes wrong with a Soviet gun, I'll have to track down parts, and if significant repairs are required, find a gunsmith capable of working on Soviet weaponry, as opposed to a brand new gun which has a guarantee.
C) 7.62x25, although delivering velocities upto 1500fps and energies upto 440 ft/lb, .357 Magnum rounds loaded slightly hot (which a good revolver will handle without issues) will get going almost as fast (at 1450 fps) and deliver 600 ft/lb, in addition to .357's superior expansion properties. .45 ACP is a slow-moving, freight-train type round, traveling around 1050-1100 fps but delivering over 400 ft/lb due to it's larger size.
D) Although I could be wrong, I've never seen a "compact" CV52, or any other pistol that fires the 7.62x25. It's significantly bigger and heavier than either weapon I'm considering.

The benefits of the 7.62x25 are clear; great penetration (but not necessarily stopping power), cheap surplus ammo, easy enough to reload yourself, etc... But it doesn't make a very good workhorse caliber in my opinion.

I appreciate your input and didn't mean to blow it out of the water by any means, feel free to debate my points :p

@jack,
You're right, the XD is manufactured in Croatia to this day. However, it's proven itself to be very reliable by independent tests conducted by several handgun magazines, here's an example: http://www.tacapp.com/?p=14 (unfortunately the official story page of the test was taken down). The XD also comes with a lifetime warranty including gunsmithing work free by Springfield Armory.
The Smith & Wesson.... I don't expect anything would ever go wrong with it anyway. The other .357 I have is probably 20 years old (I'm it's second owner), has probably seen *at least* 10,000 rounds (probably more) and it's never misfired once. They're simple, efficient, reliable little weapons.

Keep in mind, bullet penetration doesn't matter as much as expansion and permanent cavity left behind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_p ... of_bullets :)

Thank you both for your input.

Any other comments on these weapons, or other suggestions?

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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Last edited by Pete Zaria on Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:23 pm

I agree Pete, you don't have to put a hole all the way through the guy as long as the hole you put halfway through him is four inches wide.
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Unread postAuthor: schismatized » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:24 pm

why are my posts being deleted out of here? :x
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:30 pm

@paaiyan,

Any deer hunter will tell you that 8-10" of penetration is necessary for a clean stopping shot - but any of the weapons mentioned here (except for maybe 9mm...) should do that. Of the one's mentioned, .357 Mag is probably the best manstopper. Furthermore, 7.62x25 would have a high potential of over penetrating the target and going into the next room, potentially endangering others.

Having said that, though, I don't really want this threat to turn into "the best gun to blow a burgler's head apart with" thread.
The weapon I'm going to buy, again, is to be used as a workhorse - plinking, target shooting, as well as defense/potential CCW :)

It's really a hard call. I've been researching both the XD and the new line of S&W .357's pretty intensively and can't find much bad to say about either one. People have said the finish on the XD is prone to rust if it's not kept clean, but that's not a real problem for me, I keep all my weapons pretty clean.
The .357 is tried an true, nearly failure-proof, and quite powerful. But ammo is a bit pricey, and it only holds 5-8 (depending on the model).
The XD .45 is newer technology, seems quite reliable, powerful enough, ammunition is cheap and easy to find, and it holds 14 rounds.
Neither could be a bad call and I wish I could afford the time and money to purchase and train with both, but I want to get really good with one. The saying in the old west was "beware the man that carries one gun" for a reason.

Input is, as always, welcomed :)

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:31 pm

schismatized wrote:why are my posts being deleted out of here? :x


Sorry, I deleted two or three posts (not just yours) that were off-topic. A few sarcastic comments and jokes about grenades... I don't mean to be a forum nazi and normally I wouldn't, but this is my thread about my gun, and I wanted to keep it clean. Nothing personal.

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:37 pm

You seem sold on the .357.The guy I go on pig hunts with shoots an old .357,it does the job.I can't ague with the results.I personally shoot a .44 special,overkill.To each there own.

It is unfortunate that some gunsmiths don't know how to work the soviet stuff(besides the AK's and such).By and large Eastern block guns are simple.And yes the CZ is a large but its also skinnier than most revolvers I've seen.There are even a few guys who use them as CC guns.I plan on getting a CZ sometime in the near future,at least that way I can debate the pros and cons on first hand basis rather than gun show experience.
And I've seen 7.62x25 at walmart.

Finally to sum it up,My bet is on the .45 if you want to go with a traditional caliber.And for nostalgia's sake what better gun to shoot it in than a 1911.Time proven design that is hard to beat.My second in a .45 is a Glock,that is one mean looking gun.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:42 pm

You know pete, you can get semi's that chamber .357 rounds. Best of both worlds maybe? I'm not sure about the availability of such a gun in a compact model for CC, but I do know I have seen them.
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:52 pm

@Goathunter,

I considered a .41 Mag or a .44 Mag, but the shot-to-shot time is pretty long given the recoil. I'm not a real big guy at 6'0 / 165 lbs, I can control a .44 Mag (I've shot my Dad's a bit over the years) but a .357 suits me better. If you can get good shot-to-shot times and keep them on the paper at 30 yards with your .44, more power to you ;) Litterally.

A colt 1911 (traditional type) is too bulky and heavy for me to want to carry. A compact model with a double-stack magazine I'd consider, but to be honest, that's basically what the springfeild XD is; a colt 1911 in a glock polymer frame with a double-stack magazine.

The Springfield Armory ESP 1911 looks nice: http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

@paaiyan,

Most .357 semi's are .357 Sig, which is very different from .357 Magnum. The only .357 Magnum semiauto I know of is the Desert Eagle and it's not a "reasonable" carry weapon. It's just like the S&W .500 Magnum; a solution without a problem to solve (save for bears).

By the way, I found the page with the 20,000 round torture test of the Springfield XD. The one they tested was a randomly-selected 9mm variant, but functions the same as the .45 ACP. Here it is: http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdo ... tory11.php

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:57 pm

OK, I wasn't sure what model that .357 mag was and I'm at work. The probably wouldn't want me looking up guns & ammo. Of course I'm here, but that's beside the point. It's sounding like the .357 with a good HP round would be the choice for you. Or maybe even a fragmenting round, but I don't know if they make those for .357. I would think they do, but idk.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:02 pm

The .44 isn't to bad but it's a 15yd. on the paper gun,the 2" snubnose doesn't help with long shots.I borrow it from my dad when I go hunting(pig hunting is nice and up close).He uses it for CC,although I've shot that gun more than he has.And with all revolvers there isn't much to go wrong.Suits me just fine because I've had it in pluff mud and swamp water before. :D
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:42 pm

@goathunter,

I have two problems with the .44 Mag, I guess.

It's great for a backup weapon when hunting dangerous game, but for self defense, I think it's a very poor choice, because:

A) Shot-to-shot time, as I mentioned, is generally poor unless you have very strong arms and have practiced with the gun a lot. Consider a situation with two adversaries, in a dark house. Quick follow-up shots and quick target acquisition are requirements
B) If you pop off a .44 Magnum round indoors with no hearing protection, everyone in the room will be completely deaf for the next 15-30 minutes. Trust me on that one. Not that .357 is THAT much better (.45 is actually subsonic in most cases and doesn't produce anywhere near as much report) but it's still not as bad as a .44 Mag.

The intimidation factor is massive, and so is the recoil. It worked for Dirty Harry, but except as a backup weapon, I think the .44 Mag is overkill for self defense.

Just my two cents, not trying to shut you down.

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:41 pm

Well, I think the .44 is also louder because it's a revolver. If I'm not mistaken, semi's tend to be considerably quieter.
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Unread postAuthor: goathunter » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:49 pm

Well its not a .44 mag its a .44 special.Suprisingly the recoil is not bad at all(the same as my grandpa's 9mm).The gun is stainless(adds some heft) and the double action is nice and smooth.My dad did buy it for intimidation factor,he did alot of work out on the docks :wink: Actually he was a yacht mechanic and was worrying about getting robbed, so he bought the .44.It has served its purpose well despite the loudness which is due to the short barrel.My grandpa also has the same gun with a 6" barrel and it is considerably quieter.I guess its all what fits the person.I personally would take a large caliber any over a medium any day.Because in all reality you aren't going to have the time to make use of the speed of the action in a home defense situation.You've got one to stop him and the others to finish him.And the big guns are very proficient at stopping things.Doesn't really matter where you hit the guy, a bullet that big is going to knock him out of commission for a while.
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