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Unread postAuthor: Modderxtrordanare » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:23 pm

What does any of this have to do with trebuchets? :? :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:44 am

Modderxtrordanare wrote:What does any of this have to do with trebuchets? :? :lol:


proving that the human desire to lob stuff at high velocity has come a long way since the middle ages ;)
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Unread postAuthor: Modderxtrordanare » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:06 am

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
Modderxtrordanare wrote:What does any of this have to do with trebuchets? :? :lol:


proving that the human desire to lob stuff at high velocity has come a long way since the middle ages ;)


So far no one (on SF) has made a cannon to shoot rotting corpses... :D :?
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:10 am

Modderxtrordanare wrote:So far no one (on SF) has made a cannon to shoot rotting corpses... :D :?


well, not in one go, no :twisted:
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:29 pm

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:That would be quite a hefty beast to hand, especially on full-auto! Of course you'd want the barrel rifled to give you an accurate slug option for longer ranges, though I'd still question the heavy calibre - what's wrong with a 12 gauge?

12 gauge would still be great, but if I could have something completely custom, why not be adventurous and snap up the extra power of the 8 gauge? It'll kick like a mule, but that's half the fun really. I don't get much in the way of recoil from my launchers, but I still relish it.

@Modderxtrordanare: Well, I could shoot rotting corpses if I wanted, but it's not very respectful of the dead, and if you lose one of the bodies in a neighbour's garden, the police start asking questions.
So, for the mean time, I will merely have to shoot AT rotting corpses.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:34 pm

Semi auto 8-gauge? That'd be kinda like the n00b t00b in Counter-strike... I agree, it would kick like no other.

As for rotting corpses... You guys (and one girl) have issues.

EDIT: For that custom-made 8-gauge, I'd say put the barrel grip on top, that way you could put your hand on top of the barrel to hold it down. Lol, I can't imagine how much your aim would have crawled up after 5 or so rounds... If you were still holding the thing that is.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:41 pm

Well then, maybe 3-shot burst fire rather than full auto - or maybe all four.

Actually, if the stock is put straight behind the barrel, the muzzle doesn't jerk up after - or during the shot. The recoil just goes straight back with no turning forces, so it stays level. If you look at modern assault rifles, the majority have the stock in this postion, with raised sights.
As has already been said here, the AK 47 is notorious for it's uncontrollability on full-auto. Then notice that the stock is lower than the line of the barrel, which produces the turning forces which throw aim.

You don't get a lot of 8-gauge shotguns in computer games, but one of them is the shotgun from the HALO series... and it's got a lot of power.
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Unread postAuthor: paaiyan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:53 pm

Well, the Counter-Strike one is actually a 12. I was just noting the similarity in concept.
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Unread postAuthor: clide » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:25 pm

joannaardway wrote:Actually, that's a pretty small ballista still. The roman seige ballistas were easily twice that size again.

Perhaps you might be interested by this BBC program that ran a few years back. Their results weren't too successful, but it's interesting nonetheless:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5 (You can see the size of their replica at the very start of this section)

For two engines of equal size, the ballista is easily more powerful than the trebuchet.
Actually, by the bicycle/car reasoning, comparing a miniature ballista to a vast trebuchet is quite illogical on the other extreme.

You are all arguing here with a highly respected textbook written by a well-known professor. What I am expressing is only data taken from this - if you have a problem, I suggest you are arguing with the wrong person.


I know this discussion has since moved on to other topics, and you were just repeating what a well educated person said. But I think it is interesting to note that the Nova episode that jimmy was talking about built a trebuchet that I would call comparable in size to that ballista maybe a little bigger, and they managed to smash a 250 lb stone into a wall from 200 yards out.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempire ... uilds.html

If nothing else I would say the simplicity and ease of construction of a trebuchet adds to its effectiveness.
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Unread postAuthor: DYI » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:57 pm

You don't get a lot of 8-gauge shotguns in computer games, but one of them is the shotgun from the HALO series... and it's got a lot of power.


Ah, the good old M90... Does anyone know if any military actually uses something like that? It would be terrifying in close quarters.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:50 pm

DYI wrote:Ah, the good old M90... Does anyone know if any military actually uses something like that? It would be terrifying in close quarters.


The closest I can think of (though at a terrifying 4 bore - 0.9" calibre!) in actual service is the Russian KS-23, though in practical terms you're probably better off with a 12 gauge semi/full auto weapon like the Vepr 12, USAS-12 or auto-assualt 12.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:40 am

Hmm... Nominally a 4 bore is slightly above 1" at 26.7mm, although the definition seems to be stretched for things between 23.75mm and 24.25mm for some reason.
Technically, a 23mm calibre is slightly smaller than what 6 gauge would be if it existed (23.35mm).

Ah, the good old M90... Does anyone know if any military actually uses something like that? It would be terrifying in close quarters.

If you read the "briefings" on the M90 from the HALO 1 & 2 manuals, then you can see practical difficulties in fitting twelve 3.5" long shells (I know technically, the 3.5" size is after firing, so they might be 3.25" long first)into a sensibly sized tubular magazine - it would be over three feet long without even starting to worry about the spring as well.

Checking the HALO 1 manual, there is mention of a "dual tubular non-detachable magazine" (which seems to be above the barrel if you look in game), which although it would shorten the length, would require a complex ammo feeding mechanism, prone to jams and misfeeds. You have to wonder why this note was removed in the second game - perhaps a group of firearms pedants mentioned this impracticality to Bungie?

Although HALO has some nice weapons, many of them aren't particularly practical in any reality, mostly to do with magazine capacity.:
- The .50 pistol with the 12-round magazine. Again, the description has changed since the first game. First time, the rounds were described as "high-explosive". It also talks about headshots being essential in the first game for "immediate and total incapacitation" - a .50 round would incapacitate most creatures quite well if it only it hit the torso. It was disappointing when they toned it down for the second game.
- The SMG with a 60 (caseless) round magazine - in 5mm, which isn't a likely size for an SMG round either.
- And more impressively, the assault rifle from the first game with a sixty 7.62mm round magazine.

Then again, some of them are wrong in the other direction.
- The sniper rifle in 14.5mm only has a 4 round mag. Normally, such things have at least twice the capacity. Although it is fun to carefully wait for a few enemies to line up right, then get three headshots with one round.

... wait, I'm droning there.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:48 am

I feel obliged to drone on :)

Checking the HALO 1 manual, there is mention of a "dual tubular non-detachable magazine" (which seems to be above the barrel if you look in game), which although it would shorten the length, would require a complex ammo feeding mechanism, prone to jams and misfeeds.


The Neostead shotgun has a dual tubular non-detachable magazine that holds 12 rounds and as a pump-action isn't noted for unreliability.

The .50 pistol with the 12-round magazine. Again, the description has changed since the first game. First time, the rounds were described as "high-explosive". It also talks about headshots being essential in the first game for "immediate and total incapacitation" - a .50 round would incapacitate most creatures quite well if it only it hit the torso. It was disappointing when they toned it down for the second game.


I can picture a Desert Eagle with an extended magazine that will hold 12 rounds, and it would be easy to make an explosive bullet in that calibre. It wouldn't be the most practical of weapons but it could conceivably be made.

The SMG with a 60 (caseless) round magazine - in 5mm, which isn't a likely size for an SMG round either.


The Calico SMG can take a 100 round 9mm magazine, the more practical FN P90 takes 50 rounds. With regards to calibre, there is an increasing trend towards short barrelled assault rifles in small calibres being used in the SMG role, as well as the prevalence of "personal defense weapons" like the P90 in 5.7mm and HK MP7 in 4.6mm. An interesting development is the CBJ-MS PDW that can be converted from 9mm to a 6.5x25mm round that fires a saboted 4mm tungsten penetrator at an impressive 815 m/s - since HALO is set in the future, I would expect this trend to continue. Also, the only really viable caseless weapon we've seen is the HK G11 that was also fitted with 50 round mags and in 4.7mm calibre.

And more impressively, the assault rifle from the first game with a sixty 7.62mm round magazine.


While I wouldn't want to be the one to try it, there are many 7.62x51mm machineguns like the HK21E that can be fired from the hip in the assault rifle role, also there are 100 round mags available for the AK (though in the less powerful 7.62x39mm chambering)

The sniper rifle in 14.5mm only has a 4 round mag. Normally, such things have at least twice the capacity.


The most common 14.5mm rifle I can think of, the South African NTW-20, has a three round mag. Don't forget the round is significantly bigger than the 50 calibre normally seen in Anti-Material rifles.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:31 am

There I was thinking the P90's mag was the most interesting I'd seen ^_^

Interesting that the 14.5mm version of the NTW has more power and range than the 20mm version.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:05 am

Hotwired wrote:Interesting that the 14.5mm version of the NTW has more power and range than the 20mm version.


You can't really compare them directly, because the 14.5mm bullet is a solid round while the 20mm can fire a high-explosive shell. The former flies faster and has a flatter trajectory and therefore longer accurate range and greater kinetic energy, ideal against armoured vehicles, however against soft area targets the 20mm will have the most effect.
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