Login    Register
User Information
Username:
Password:
We are a free and open
community, all are welcome.
Click here to Register
Sponsored
Who is online

In total there are 68 users online :: 3 registered, 0 hidden and 65 guests


Most users ever online was 155 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:40 am

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] based on users active over the past 5 minutes

The Team
Administrators
Global Moderators
global_moderators.png CS

auto-recock no tool hammer valve?

Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
Sponsored 
  • Author
    Message

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 pm

Morpherman, I have been thinking more seriously about using your plans instead of clide's HEAR valve (for my paintball semi), as your valve is easier to make. It seems to have the same efficiency (no pilot), good opening times, it's semi, and frankly in theory it should be more reliable.

SO... I examined the design I tried to pick out the errors and make it less rough and do-able. I made a picture with my changes to show you!

Specificly, I added stabilizers to the piston, moved the sear (no air loss), and enlargened and streamlined the chamber area. I also added a screw to adjust the spring pressure to account for different PSI's.
  • 0

Attachments
Piston diagram.jpg
MorpherValve redesign!
UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: VH_man » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:05 pm

if someone builds this i think i might have to copy it. you do realize that if you let the sear just stay down you get full auto at an incredible RPM.

ALSO!!! why use the blow-foward bolt when the piston/sear can actuate the bolt opening-closing. its far more efficient...........
  • 0

User avatar
VH_man
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:00 pm
Location: New Hampshire
Reputation: 1

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:10 pm

Yes, we relize that. This has the potential to become the one of the best semi-auto/auto valve, maybe even surpassing the HEAR in preformance, efficiency, and reliability. The one limiting factor, like morpherman said, is that it would need a stronger spring at higher PSI's, meaning slower and less efficient.

I also though about using the piston to actuate a bolt, but I don't know how I would do it. It can't be put inline because the actuating piston would hit it. You have any ideas?

EDIT: I think I have a solution for the high pressure issue. Pic may follow, but for now I will just describe it. Like in clide's valve, there would be a second piston on the same axis, but behind the pressure source. In this case, It would be in an isolated section behind the schrader. If you don't understand, TOO BAD! :twisted: Or, the piston could be 1.25" and cover a 3/4" barrel, so that there is only a small foward pressure from the air and spring.
  • 0

Last edited by Hailfire753 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:50 pm

This is no new concept, its just a dumbed-down hammer valve. Does anyone know how hard the springs are in commercial hammer valves?
also, what kind of performance do you think we can expect from say, 200 psi?
  • 0

searching for a modern day savior from another place,inclined toward charity,everyone's begging for an answer,without regard to validity,the searching never ends,it goes on and on for eternity
-Bad religion
User avatar
mopherman
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:20 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:59 pm

Yes, but I have never seen a easy, "no tool" verion, or (as far as I know) any PVC hammer valve made before. The ones used in paintball guns are complicated, and they operate on very high, non-PVC friendly pressures.

200 psi should be enough to puncture metal (aluminum?) roofing, as seen in the slider video. I do not remember the exact PSI clide used, though.

Also, do you see any problems with my pic?
  • 0

UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:05 pm

Yup, I'm just waiting for some advice from some knowedgable members such as clide,jsr,BC,SB and some others. As soon as I findout What strength pring I need, I'll start pushing ahead. Thanks for your imput btw,We seem to have similar goals right now
Edit: The only thing i see in you pic is that The air might rush out the barrel before recocking the hammer.
  • 0

searching for a modern day savior from another place,inclined toward charity,everyone's begging for an answer,without regard to validity,the searching never ends,it goes on and on for eternity
-Bad religion
User avatar
mopherman
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:20 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hawkeye » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:55 am

You are forgetting that a high pressure hammer valve system takes only a fraction of air off a chamber. Each shot is probably something like a full chamber of 200 psi in a piston valve set-up. With only 200 psi and a short opening time of the hammer valve, you're only going to be taking very weak shots. It won't work out to a 200 psi shot just because that's the chamber pressure.

By the time the air comes through the valve and enters the dead space area, it doesn't amount to much.
You might make an OK airsoft gun with this set-up but you won't be punching holes in cans.
  • 0


Hawkeye
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:12 pm
Reputation: 0

Sponsored

Sponsor
 


Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:19 pm

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If the hammer has a long stroke, the chamber has a longer time to fill. And the point is to only take off just enough air to fire the ammo efficiently. Also, paintball esque pressures could be used in a metal valve setup. With 800 psi in the refill chamber you wouldn't need an auxiliary CO2 reg.

Wait... I just had an epiphany! :idea: (:lol: you are thinking: :roll:) I'll be back with a pic.

(Hint) Geniuses think backwards! :lol: I do have a tendency to be overdramatic, don't I? :oops:
  • 0

Last edited by Hailfire753 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: mopherman » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:04 pm

Hawkeye wrote:You are forgetting that a high pressure hammer valve system takes only a fraction of air off a chamber. Each shot is probably something like a full chamber of 200 psi in a piston valve set-up. With only 200 psi and a short opening time of the hammer valve, you're only going to be taking very weak shots. It won't work out to a 200 psi shot just because that's the chamber pressure.

By the time the air comes through the valve and enters the dead space area, it doesn't amount to much.
You might make an OK airsoft gun with this set-up but you won't be punching holes in cans.

Your probably right. Well....... back to the drawing board :? Ima go cry now. (just kidding)
  • 0

searching for a modern day savior from another place,inclined toward charity,everyone's begging for an answer,without regard to validity,the searching never ends,it goes on and on for eternity
-Bad religion
User avatar
mopherman
Brigadier General
Brigadier General
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:20 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:40 pm

Ok, this is my idea. The hammer would hit the activating rod, which would open the refill chamber, charging the primary chamber. The hammer would be held from opening by a sear. When released, the piston would seal before the hammer releases the air in the primary chamber.
This way, the primary chamber is always fully charged, so there is virtually no delay between trigger pull and firing. The chamber would have enough time to fill, and there is no pilot air lost or air loss from the sear. You would need a heck of a sear to hold the hammer back, (OR a good spring) but that shouldn't be too hard, would it?

You think it would work?

EDIT: WHOOPS! The hammer looks like it is connected to the actuating rod, but it is not. I also forgot the refilling sear. See my next post.
  • 0

Attachments
New piston.jpg
My idea
Last edited by Hailfire753 on Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: BigJon » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:38 pm

Hailfire753, I'm not sure I understand how your above design works. It looks like the pistion is blocking the air passage to the barrel. I'm not saying that it won't work because i don't know, but I think the first design was better.
  • 0

User avatar
BigJon
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:21 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hawkeye » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:08 pm

You would need to have more room for air to get past the rod as mentioned above. It needs to fit snugly at two points that so that it isn't rattling around, just not there. I'm not sure how you intend to actually fire this gun. Usually a hammer valve would just release the air. How exactly do you intend for the air to get out of that smaller chamber? It looks like you intend to "fire" the gun just to fill the firing chamber. What then?
If you are happy with a weak gun, just direct the air released right out the barrel through a T. No sense letting it expand uselessly into that smaller chamber.
  • 0


Hawkeye
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:12 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:19 pm

Opps, in the picture it looks like the hammer is connected to the actuating rod, but it is not. Also, I forgot the refill sear. The mechanism works like a paintball piston.


It goes like this:

1. The weak spring seals the refill chamber.
2. The refill chamber is pressurised.
3. The refilling sear is released, so the hammer slides forward. It is kept open so that the hammer does not catch it when it is cycled.
4. The hammer pushes the actuating rod, opening the refill chamber to the primary chamber. The firing sear catches the hammer and keeps it from cyclying open and reseting.
5. The firing sear is released, and the hammer slides foward from the primary chamber pressure. The piston re-seals from the air pressure and weak spring before the hammer opens. The hammer slides back enough to allow the air through the tee, to the bolt and barrel.
6. The hammer slides foward again, reseting the process. If the firing sear is held open, a high rate of automatic fire is achived. If semi-auto fire is desired, a mechanism is used to only open it briefly.
7. To refill the chamber the refilling sear is released and the gun is fired. The hammer would catch the sear, which would prevent it from cycling and opening the piston.
  • 0

Attachments
step 4.jpg
step 3.jpg
step 2.jpg
step 1.jpg
Last edited by Hailfire753 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hawkeye » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:06 pm

Still, why that smaller chamber? You're just giving your tiny burp of air room to expand and do virtually nothing. You also have to realize that you need to have quite a blast of air to push the hammer back and fire the projectile. It will run out so fast that the potential for even semi-auto will be limited to very few shots. It may still cycle well as pressure drops since the valve will be easier to open and should stay open longer which may regulate shots fairly well.
  • 0


Hawkeye
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:12 pm
Reputation: 0

Unread postAuthor: Hailfire753 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:43 pm

My valve is for a regulated CO2 paintball gun, so air is not an issue. The "smaller" chamber is the only chamber. Its like the piston chamber on the GB semi. The refill chamber is for exactly that, to refill the chamber for semi/auto shots. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. Also, in the new valve, there is no "burp" of air. The piston stays open
  • 0

UPDATED MARCH '08
field-legal paintball semi
User avatar
Hailfire753
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:50 pm
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Reputation: 0

PreviousNext

Return to Pneumatic Cannon Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot]

Reputation System ©'