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Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:27 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

PVC Cleaner and PVC Primer are not the same thing. Why do you think Oatey makes both? Cleaner is NOT primer minus the purple dye. You can get Primer without purple dye but it is still called Primer, it is not the same as cleaner.

If you are building a pneumatic it should be cleaned/primed with PVC Primer (or PVC Cleaner/Primer) NOT just PVC Cleaner. It should then be glued with PVC Glue.

The wiki page on PVC chemicals has a table showing what is in cleaner, primer (or primer/cleaner) and glue.
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Unread postAuthor: nivekatoz » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:23 pm

Yeah ,what hubb017... said use foam or somthing behind the seal to take up any slack in space. That will fix any seal problem, I hope..... Then again Im no piston valve expert. :thumbup:
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:14 pm

jimmy101 wrote:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

PVC Cleaner and PVC Primer are not the same thing. Why do you think Oatey makes both? Cleaner is NOT primer minus the purple dye. You can get Primer without purple dye but it is still called Primer, it is not the same as cleaner.


Jimmy, I know you feel the need to go by the book on this, that's fine. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. However, I'm not giving out bad or unsafe or untested advice here. Oatey even now offers a primer/cleaner product that they claim is "less aggressive", but nevertheless obviously primes pvc. I haven't seen it on the shelf though...just like I haven't seen the Oatey clear primer on the shelf....wonder why that is?.. :? There's an obvious market for it. Even the Oatey "How-to" poster in the plumbing dept. at your local HomeDepot recommends cleaner for priming non-code usage.

Priming is nothing more than degreasing (cleaning) and softening of the pvc joints in preparation for the cemeting job....and that is exactly the function Oatey Cleaner will perform. There's nothing more magical to it than that. I challenge you to try it yourself and see.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:34 pm

starman wrote:Priming is nothing more than degreasing (cleaning) and softening of the pvc joints in preparation for the cemeting job....and that is exactly the function Oatey Cleaner will perform. There's nothing more magical to it than that.

Cleaning, degreasing, softening, that is what primer does. That is not what cleaning does. Cleaning just removes grease, dirt etc. it does not properly prime the pipe.

Clearly a spudgun is "non-code" use but the most important aspect of "code use" is that the weld be at least as strong as the pipe itself. Cleaner followed by glue is not the same as primer (or cleaner/primer) followed by glue. There are more differences between cleaner and primer than just the presence of the dye. Indeed, you can get primer without the dye, that does not make it the same as cleaner.

starman wrote:I challenge you to try it yourself and see.

How about if you do it since you are the one that says there are no difference. All you need to do is glue up a couple doozen joints, some with cleaner+glue, some with primer+glue. Allow to dry the pressure test each joint. If there are no difference in preformance between the two sets of joints then you can say cleaner=primer.

I think I'll stick with what Oatey (and other PVC makers) say. A proper, pressure rated joint is done with primer+glue. Clenaer is not a substitute for primer.
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Unread postAuthor: pat123 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:55 pm

Sorry Starman, I am with Jimmy.
look at the description for cleaner.

and primer

the primer is the only one that softens the pipe

edit: here it is on oatey's site
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:29 am

pat123 wrote:Sorry Starman, I am with Jimmy.
look at the description for cleaner.

and primer

the primer is the only one that softens the pipe

edit: here it is on oatey's site


This clear primer product is not readily available in the US...and I read it all months ago. I know from personal experience that cleaner softens PVC. Why not try it for yourself. However, I'll refer you to my other responseto Jimmy.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:53 am

jimmy101 wrote:
starman wrote:Priming is nothing more than degreasing (cleaning) and softening of the pvc joints in preparation for the cemeting job....and that is exactly the function Oatey Cleaner will perform. There's nothing more magical to it than that.

Cleaning, degreasing, softening, that is what primer does. That is not what cleaning does. Cleaning just removes grease, dirt etc. it does not properly prime the pipe.

Clearly a spudgun is "non-code" use but the most important aspect of "code use" is that the weld be at least as strong as the pipe itself. Cleaner followed by glue is not the same as primer (or cleaner/primer) followed by glue. There are more differences between cleaner and primer than just the presence of the dye. Indeed, you can get primer without the dye, that does not make it the same as cleaner.

How about if you do it since you are the one that says there are no difference. All you need to do is glue up a couple doozen joints, some with cleaner+glue, some with primer+glue. Allow to dry the pressure test each joint. If there are no difference in preformance between the two sets of joints then you can say cleaner=primer.

I think I'll stick with what Oatey (and other PVC makers) say. A proper, pressure rated joint is done with primer+glue. Clenaer is not a substitute for primer.


Jimmy, you're taking an unnecessarily dismissive tone here. Ignore the Oatey marketing for a moment...I've tried it, it works. Cleaner cleans, degreases and yes, softens pvc pipe, and builds strong welds...as plain as the nose is on my face. Now why would I make such a statement, that couldn't be verified true?

However, I'll refer you to the comment I made here...
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:00 pm

starman wrote: Ignore the Oatey marketing for a moment...I've tried it, it works. Cleaner cleans, degreases and yes, softens pvc pipe, and builds strong welds...as plain as the nose is on my face. ...

Really? You've welded up many joints then pressure tested to 2~3X the pipes rating? How about posting your results?

starman wrote:Now why would I make such a statement, that couldn't be verified true?

There is a bit of a difference between making a statement that can be verified and making a verified statement.

Feel free to do whatever you feel is safe. I'll stick with what US plumbing code and the manufacturer says about not using cleaner in place of primer for pressure carrying joints. I'll continue to recommend to noobs that joints should be primed with primer and not just cleaned.
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Unread postAuthor: pat123 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:15 pm

I am just going by what i have heard and what the Oatey website says.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:11 am

jimmy101 wrote:Really? You've welded up many joints then pressure tested to 2~3X the pipes rating? How about posting your results?


Yes really. And no, I'm not an idiot...150 psi my compressor max.. many joints, yes. Posting results...well I've got several finished results posted in the cannon showcases...I performed several other tests on scrap pieces but I didn't bother building an Excel spreadsheet, taking any pictures, writing up an engineering peer review...or anything.... :roll: I guess I just expected you to believe me....not very scientific huhhh.

jimmy101 wrote:I'll stick with what US plumbing code and the manufacturer says about not using cleaner in place of primer for pressure carrying joints. I'll continue to recommend to noobs that joints should be primed with primer and not just cleaned.


Please, by all means, you've mentioned these things several times now. You don't need my permission to continue your noob recommendations.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:16 am

starman wrote:Please, by all means, you've mentioned these things several times now. You don't need my permission to continue your noob recommendations.

I'm with Jimmy as well.

I've taken some old joints off old spudguns that got disassembled, and subjected them to my 320 psi pump, not just 150 psi - and the joints without primer came apart, the ones with it held strong.
If I can get the joints to come apart at under 300 psi, that gives you less than a 2x safety margin, which wouldn't make me feel very confident.

Just like solder joints need cleaning up with wire wool and a smear of flux before you even get out the blow torch and solder, PVC joints need cleaning, priming, then cementing.
It's very much a case of "does what it says on the tin": Cleaner cleans, primer primes - and they shouldn't be considered interchangeable.

Regardless of what you plan to do with it, I'd recommend listening to what the manufacturers say any product will do - I don't always use things within spec, but when it's a safety issue like this, you could bet your mother on me doing it properly.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:43 am

Ragnarok wrote:I've taken some old joints off old spudguns that got disassembled, and subjected them to my 320 psi pump, not just 150 psi - and the joints without primer came apart, the ones with it held strong.


I'm not advocating a primed-less joint, far from it.

Ragnarok wrote:Just like solder joints need cleaning up with wire wool and a smear of flux before you even get out the blow torch and solder.


I agree but this is completely irrelevant from the current disussion.

Ragnarok wrote:Regardless of what you plan to do with it, I'd recommend listening to what the manufacturers say any product will do - I don't always use things within spec, but when it's a safety issue like this, you could bet your mother on me doing it properly.


And me too!
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Unread postAuthor: pat123 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:53 pm

the next time i go to lowes, i'll get cleaner. I will clean and glue a pipe with two encaps and prime and glue another exactly the same. If anyone else wants to give it a try go ahead, it will probably a few weeks before i can get this done and my limit is 300 psi. I hope one of them pops before that.
edit: i'll also try one with just glue to see how that holds up.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:07 pm

pat123 wrote:the next time i go to lowes, i'll get cleaner. I will clean and glue a pipe with two encaps and prime and glue another exactly the same. If anyone else wants to give it a try go ahead, it will probably a few weeks before i can get this done and my limit is 300 psi. I hope one of them pops before that.
edit: i'll also try one with just glue to see how that holds up.


Now there's the spirit. Be sure you use the cleaner just as you would primer and do it in a lot of light, not as easy to see as the purple stuff. Let them all cure at least 24 hrs before airing up....of course you already knew that... :wink:

How about a couple 1' sticks of 2" sched 40 with end caps? ...something that will show joint failure and less likely to induce PVC failure at the higher pressures.
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Unread postAuthor: iisthemuffin » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:57 pm

No offense starman, but i find you incredibly stubborn. The Oatey site describes each product and it says no where that cleaner is a substitute for primer. I would suggest you find the number to Oatey and give them a call. Ask them for yourself.

And you are right. Cleaner and primer are made of the same things. But that does not mean they have equal amounts of each. Im going to put this into some weird example just to help you understand.

Say your making, oh i dont know, a milkshake. Ok. Lets make two milkshakes, both chocolate. Now in one we will put 3/4 milk and 1/4 ice cream. In the other 1/4 milk and 3/4 ice cream. Now they are both still chocolate milkshakes. There is no question about it. They have the same ingredients right? But they of course arent going to taste the same.

Im comparing tasting to priming in my examle. If you follow what im saying. Cleaner and primer wont "taste" the same even though they have the same ingredients, just because they have different amounts. Having the same ingredients does not make them the same thing.
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