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Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:07 pm

I don't really want to get too involved here but i'd imagine cleaner would be a far weaker mixture then primer. They probably found out that primer can clean PVC really well (clear primer) but it softens the pipe too much. So they made cleaner with the same ingredients but much less of one or two chemicals that softens the PVC.

So that way you can clean your PVC without softening it.

Or something like that I guess. I wouldn't really know though.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:20 pm

iisthemuffin wrote:No offense starman, but i find you incredibly stubborn. The Oatey site describes each product and it says no where that cleaner is a substitute for primer. I would suggest you find the number to Oatey and give them a call. Ask them for yourself.


Oh no offense taken...but instead of simply piling on here muffin, why don't you try some joints for yourself. Might I suggest a setup like this...

Image
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This is an air manifold I built to experiment with some hybrid ideas. I filled it with about 145 psi air earlier this afternoon and plan to keep it connected a few days. My hose has a slow leak in it so I'm just going keep the compressor turned on to keep the pressure up.

You'll need a hole of some type in the vessel to allow air to escape when cementing the second end cap. The air pressure in there won't let you press it on fully.

MrCrowley wrote:So that way you can clean your PVC without softening it.


The cleaner does soften the pvc. If you're using it to "clean", erase the bar codes and such from the pipe, you'll find you need to wipe it up quickly or the pvc becomes rubbery and starts to peel when you wipe it.

Whether it softens at the same rate as the primer product I can't be certain. When I've applied them side by side, the softening action feels the same to me.
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Last edited by starman on Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:31 pm

Yeah I meant that it may not soften at the same rate or degree.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:44 pm

MrCrowley wrote:Yeah I meant that it may not soften at the same rate or degree.


If so it isn't appreciably noticable....
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:51 pm

Like I said I don't really want to involve myself here, I don't know enough about cleaner or primer to take sides. :)


Not like I can get cleaner in NZ very easily anyway.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:44 am

Starman: If you are going to test the holding power of cleaner vs primer then you need to be able to pressurize the test to at least 2X the pipes rating. IIRC, for 2" pipe that means ~560 PSIG (at 73F).

Testing at, or below, the pipes rating is really no test at all. All you would be able to say is that at ~half the rated pressure the joint is OK. That is not the same as saying the joint is OK at the full rating of the pipe.

You might think testing at 560 PSIG is a bit anal but it really isn't. You would be surprised how fast you "use up" the 2x safety factor with things like firing on a very hot day (~65% derating), inclusion of dynamic forces instead of just static forces, the weakening caused by holes, etc.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:08 pm

jimmy101 wrote:You might think testing at 560 PSIG is a bit anal but it really isn't.


Of course it isn't, IF you're a pvc pipe/solvent weld designer or manufacturer. It's way out-of-scope and capability for me and all but the most anal among us spudders.

My vessel is holding strong...it is around 100 degrees in my shop right now, so there's some derating for you. Also, I'll plan on placing it out in the direct sun this afternoon...should be good for another 20-30 degrees derating. Also, I'll put a gage on it to watch the pressure difference rise from the extra heat.
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Unread postAuthor: Leonard » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:57 pm

Im sorry but i feel this is a waste of time. The answer seems clear, cleaner AND primer would not exist in two different mixes if the products would be the same and if there would not be a need for BOTH. Primer exist because it is needed, cleaner exist because it is also needed, in two different distinct steps.

It is OBVIOUS that using cleaner instead of primer will make a weaker joint than using the actual pvc primer. If cleaner would do a perfect job for both cleaning and priming, then primer would NOT exist. But it does exist.

For a perfecly safe joint, one must use all products the way there are meant to be used and in the right order. Using cleaner instead of primer WILL work, and possibly work pretty well, but will not make a joint as strong as using the intended product.

Spudguns are dangerous, so it's just common sense to use the right product in the right place, even if the difference is minimal, you dont want to take any chances.
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Unread postAuthor: Xerxys » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:07 pm

Two things

1. I live in the U.K. and the pvc site only sells cleaner and cement no primer.

2. One forum successfully Hijacked
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:26 pm

Leonard wrote:Im sorry but i feel this is a waste of time.


Yes I think you're right.... :roll:

OK, I'm officially removing myself from this discussion before it descends into heretofore unplumbed depths of unnecessary personal destruction on several fronts.

I hereby recant my public recommendation to use the product called Oatey Cleaner in the place of the purple Oatey Primer...not for the lack of confidence in the recommendation but mainly for the sheer sake of moving on. I haven't the capacity to perform full engineering level tests on the concept so I am no longer going publicly push the idea in a vacuum, and at the same time unnecessarily have doubt cast on my personal credibility.

Anyone wishing to discuss the idea with me is free to do so privately.

Otherwise, use the purple stuff folks!!!
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Last edited by starman on Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:28 pm

Bump it
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