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freon from fridge

Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: clide » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:45 pm

If you do end up just cutting it out anyway you could crimp the pipes going to the coils before you cut it so you can trap as much freon as you can in the coils. You can turn the fridge upside down so if there is fluid in the system it will run into the coils before you crimp them closed.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:01 pm

starman wrote:It's up to the proponent of a theory to observe and prove it, and peers to repeat the observance...it's not the job of the skeptic to disprove an unproven theory.

There is no such thing as a scientific theory that has been "proven". The word "proven" has no scientific meaning.

Data and observations supports (or not) a given theory. When the preponderance of evidence suggest the theory is correct than it is accepted, though still not proven. In some cases, a theory is accepted (and used extensively) even though it is know to be incorrect. This occurs when the theory has great utility (usually predictive power).

Feel free to not believe that CFCs harm the ozone layer. I think I'll believe what experts in chemistry, and atmospheric chemistry in particular, believe instead of following the tin-hat crowd that think it's a con.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:23 pm

Ive been thinking about using a fridge compressor for a long time, but I am still concerned with the freon.

I just did some calculations to compare the ozone depletion by the CO2 exhaust of my car per km versus the release of the freon of one fridge.
Assuming that freon is 10 000 times more damaging to the ozone layer then CO2.

The outcome:
The damage to the ozone layer is equal for:
-Driving my car 9000km
-Firing my combustion spudgun 87 million times
-Opening up ONE FREAKING FRIDGE and releasing its freon!


As you can see, this is an ridiculous amount of environmental damage.
I think Ill try to get that freon professionally removed, because this is not just a bit of damage, it is huge!
And if I could partially save the existence of mankind (and save McCrowleys's skin from cancer :) ) for just 50 bucks, I would.
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Unread postAuthor: Biopyro » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:49 pm

sv490665 wrote:Dude, it's freon from a little fridge compressor, one person even making a lifetime habit of sending bad stuff into the environment won't even make a fraction of a difference


You couldnt be more worng. One molecule of dichlorodiflouromethane catalyses the breakdown of thousands of ozone molecules. One fridgeful of freon over the lifetime of the gas in the ozone would cause a very large hole over the 100 years it persists in the atmosphere.

People like you are exactly what stops the ozone hole healing faster. There is a good reason the government imposes a hefty fine on CFC emissons.

Edit: Psycix said a similar thing, I didn't see the 2nd page, but you get the point
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 pm

It sounds like the best option is what clide said. Trap the freon and contain it, if this sounds like the best option for you we should start discussing different ways to trap and contain. I think everyone is getting the idea about the dangers of freon so lets move on. :)
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Unread postAuthor: VH_man » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:24 pm

I just did some reasearch, and apparently what they do is compress all the freon into a liquid into the holding tank, and then drain the liquid out of the tank. Then they close it off again, and create a strong vaccuum to suck it all out of places and make it gaseous, then compress it into a liquid into the holding tank, drain, and do this multiple times before they finally run compressed air through the thing for a while........

a little more than the average spudgunner can do.........
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Unread postAuthor: homedepotpro » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:31 pm

I guess I'll will just save up my cash and take it to the place to get the freon sucked.
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Unread postAuthor: SEAKING9006 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:46 pm

You CAN do it yourself, actually. Fastenal sells fittings that use positive air pressure to create a vacuum. Basically you put pressurized air into what is basically a magical tee fitting, and air flows out of one hole, and is sucked out of another, creating a vacuum. I have no clue how it works, but it's in the Fastenal catalog.
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Unread postAuthor: sv490665 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:49 pm

what about just diverting it into a tube, capping at both ends and burrying somewhere... Jeez looks like everyone hates me now for my comment before :D I'm not a litter bug, i just didn't think that a little freon would matter but apparently its more serious stuff than i knew about. sorry guys, my mistake.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:03 am

SEAKING9006 wrote:You CAN do it yourself, actually. Fastenal sells fittings that use positive air pressure to create a vacuum. Basically you put pressurized air into what is basically a magical tee fitting, and air flows out of one hole, and is sucked out of another, creating a vacuum. I have no clue how it works, but it's in the Fastenal catalog.

Thats the venturi effect.
The air molecules "suck" the others with them.
But then you will get a tank full of freon AND a crapload of air. Also the venturi thing can only vent out to atmospheric pressure if you want it to work properly.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:18 pm

jimmy101 wrote:Feel free to not believe that CFCs harm the ozone layer. I think I'll believe what experts in chemistry, and atmospheric chemistry in particular, believe instead of following the tin-hat crowd that think it's a con.


I don't need your permission to be appropriately skeptical. Instead of parroting the textbook definition of the scientific method and a proof and then taking a backhanded slap at my intellect, why don't you address my contention that there is no evidence (ok I won't use the word "proof") to this day that CFCs caused or is causing actual ozone depletion?
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Unread postAuthor: CpTn_lAw » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:53 pm

Freon splits into Carbon, Fluor, and Chlore under the influence of UV rays, by extension, the sun-light. Fluor and chlore and greenhouse-effect gases, and Carbon when mixed with O2 is too. When in one molecule, or CFC to be short, This molecule climbs up in the upper atmoshpere, catalysing the reaction that transforms 2(O3) into 3(O2).
I encourage you to make some research before stating that CFCs have never been proven to damage the ozone layer. As a matter of fact they do not "damage" it, they acclerate the natural transformation. There is a chemical explanation, and a scientific evidence to that, the ENVISAT satellite took mesures with an instrument named GOMOS (Global Ozone Monitoring by Occultation of Stars), which also gives information relative to the ozone layer being affected by man-produced gases. (cf. Freon and other gases). It's been Ten years since scientists made it clear that CFCs are not a good thing for the ozone layer.
Be sure starman that i wish you no shame or anything else you could possibly take in this reply, i just wish for things to be clear, and for the people of this forum to understand clearly the long term dangers of deliberate unconcern.
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Unread postAuthor: jimmy101 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:06 pm

starman wrote:
jimmy101 wrote:Feel free to not believe that CFCs harm the ozone layer. I think I'll believe what experts in chemistry, and atmospheric chemistry in particular, believe instead of following the tin-hat crowd that think it's a con.


I don't need your permission to be appropriately skeptical. Instead of parroting the textbook definition of the scientific method and a proof and then taking a backhanded slap at my intellect, why don't you address my contention that there is no evidence (ok I won't use the word "proof") to this day that CFCs caused or is causing actual ozone depletion?

1. A very strong negative correlation between ozone levels in the upper atmosphere and the CFC levels. Granted, correlation does not prove causation but to prove causation requires doing an experiment on the entire earth. The current ban on ozone damaging freons is essentially an experiment on causation. If the ozone layer rebounds as the freon concentration drops then that would be very strong evidence of a causative relationship.

2. It is very easy to setup a laboratory model of the upper atmosphere. Blast it with broad band light (visible and UV) and measure the ozone content. Add freon and measure the affect of the freon. For a decently equipped chem. lab this is a trivial experiment. This experiment has been done many times and consistently links damaging freons to ozone depletion.

3. The ONLY reasonable counter argument to the relationship between CFCs in the atmosphere and the ozone layer is the absence of experiments to "prove" causation. As mentioned before, that requires doing a many year experiment on the entire earth.

The affects of certain CFCs on atmospheric ozone has been generally accepted by the scientific community for more than 30 years;
1. National Academy of Sciences, Halocarbons: Effects on Stratospheric Ozone (1976).
2. National Academy of Sciences, Halocarbons: Environmental Effects of Chlorofluoromethane Release (1976).

So, you may believe that there is "no evidence to this day that CFCs caused or is causing actual ozone depletion", the scientists who are members of the National Academy of Sciences disagree with you. Gee, I wonder who knows more about the subject?

As in any controversy about Man's affect on the environment, it is always a good idea to "follow the money" being spent by those that support and those that oppose the viewpoint. When the problem was first identified in the mid 70's, Dupont, a leading manufacturer of freons, heavy funded the position that there is no relationship between CFCs and atmospheric ozone.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:01 pm

jimmy101 wrote:Granted, correlation does not prove causation

Indeed, I did a survey last year, and I found that as the percentage of people wearing shorts increased, so did the number of people eating ice creams.

Therefore, wearing shorts creates cravings for ice cream. :D

~~~~~

I shall put it this way. There is, at the very least, a theory that says CFCs harm the ozone layer, and I've seen enough evidence showing that it is, at the very least, chemically possible (I studied it in "high school" chemistry").

For those reasons, even if it is not 100% proven, I believe it is my duty to respect the theory and avoid doing anything unnecessary.
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Unread postAuthor: TurboSuper » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:42 pm

Welp, the rate of ozone depletion has been decreasing over the last few years, so either we're doing something right, or it's just a coincidink.

That being said, why reverse it and find out? When it comes to solar radiation I take the "leave well enough alone" road.
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