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Ambitious noob's initial brainstorming

Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
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Ambitious noob's initial brainstorming

Unread postAuthor: Bando_Red » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:56 pm

I'm a general purpose tinkerer.Pneumatics and air pressure and stuff like that aren't my strong suit.So far,I'v decided that there area few prime goals I'm trying to reach

*Uses .177 or .22 pellets
*built in pump action
*not much more than 10 lbs
*traditional trigger

If I'm not totally occupied trying to mee the above requirements,a breech loading mechanism similar to Koolaidman's double barrel shotgun would be nice.

Am I in way over my head? Any projects already here that could give me a good basis? I looked for pump action articles but all I found were pages about bike pumps and air compressors.

Please acknowledge any obvious problems with my plan kindly.I'm not an idiot,I'm just a noob.
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Re: Ambitious noob's initial brainstorming

Unread postAuthor: starman » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:12 pm

Bando_Red wrote:Am I in way over my head? Any projects already here that could give me a good basis? I looked for pump action articles but all I found were pages about bike pumps and air compressors.

Please acknowledge any obvious problems with my plan kindly.I'm not an idiot,I'm just a noob.


Sounds like you may be a little overly ambitious. Since you're new to some things, why not keep thing relatively simple for your first real gun...a sprinkler valve pneumatic potato gun or spray and pray combustion. These will offer you more challenge than you think and will set you up for something more advanced.

Take your time, stick around and research Spudfiles. Everything you need to know is here.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:16 pm

What exactly do you mean by pump action? Reloading ammunition by means of a pump action, or a built in air pump?

In the latter case, no problem. If you're reloading pellets and expect to fire more than one shot per air fill, that gets a bit more complicated. I would strongly suggest you take a look at Antonio's excellent designs, very ingenious and made using simple tools and easy to find materials:

Antonio's P2

If on the other hand you want a high performance single shot launcher with a built in pump, either get your hands on a Quick Exhaust Valve or make your own piston valve, and use a small chamber with higher pressures.

There are many design and construction technique options, if you give a more detailed description of what you're trying to achieve then we'll be in a better position to help you ;)
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Unread postAuthor: keep_it_real » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Here's a bolt-action magazine loader I made. It's pretty finicky but not very hard to build. It took a while to get it working properly but it works pretty well now. I'm sure you could modify it a bit to make it pump action.

Traditional triggers are always a little tricky. I've gone through two designs trying to make one work for this loader. I'm not happy with either of them. One of them works and is on spudfiles somewhere but the trigger pull was too much for one finger.

You're never in over your head (I should be an inspirational speaker) but you have to remember even though a design may seem simple, it almost never is. Building (at least for me) is much harder than designing.
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Unread postAuthor: Bando_Red » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:00 pm

I know designs are almost never simple,believe me,I had to do 3D modeling in high school :? I do have a flintlock-style cap gun that has a working trigger and lock mechanism.They both can be taken right out,so if worst comes to worst I just need to find a way to adapt that trigger to my custom gun (Which will now be known as PROJECT GINI).

* by pump action I meant built in pump.I want it to work similar to a pump-action pellet gun. I'm leaning towards pneumatics as I don't really want to deal with the incosistencies of spray and pray.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:21 pm

Bando_Red wrote:I'm leaning towards pneumatics as I don't really want to deal with the incosistencies of spray and pray.


You can easily use metered butane using a simple syringe coupled to a gas lighter refill can, very consistent and effective. I would recommend making a simple combustion or pneumatic before even attempting this project, even a ball valve cannon, just to get the hang of working with PVC and pressure.

I do have a flintlock-style cap gun that has a working trigger and lock mechanism


Used in conjuntion with a modified blowgun, this will give you an effective hammer valve and potentially multiple shots per fill if you have a big enough chamber, it's one design avenue you might want to look into.
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Unread postAuthor: Bando_Red » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:09 am

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
Used in conjuntion with a modified blowgun, this will give you an effective hammer valve and potentially multiple shots per fill if you have a big enough chamber, it's one design avenue you might want to look into.



Huh :shock: I figured I'd just rig up some wires inside so when the trigger is pulled it create a spark gap. I have a slightly more convoluted idea sitting in my head though.Seal the area around the lock and use caps (or strike anywhere match heads ) as an ignition source.Of course thats awfully complex.
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Unread postAuthor: Gippeto » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:20 am

You were right, you're in over your head.

You start off talking about a pneumatic, and in your last post you are talking about spark gaps, and ignition sources.

You need to settle down and make a decision as to which direction you are going.

So, what's it going to be, pneumatic or combustion?
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:52 am

As Gippoto said.

When you uase one of these, you press the trigger which pushes the valve and air is released. What I was suggesting is removing the trigger and having your flintlock strike the valve instead, giving you faster release and the potential for multiple shots per fill.
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Unread postAuthor: Bando_Red » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Ok,I've made ONE decision I think I am sure of.I know I'd like to make Pneumatics as opposed to to Combustion.not saying I'd never do a combustions,but pneumatics interest me far more.

Oh great Gippeto,what now? All the pnuematic guns seem so varied and have so many possibilities.Whats a relatively simple one to start off with.

Note:Like I predicted,I was overly ambitious.I just don't like things I make to come out underwhelming.It's a pride thing I guess.
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Unread postAuthor: Gippeto » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:19 am

You're on the right track now. Keep the first one simple.

Simple doesn't have to mean "underwhelming" though.

An inline sprinkler valve marble gun will surprise you with its performance.(No, I've not built one, I started with pistons.)

Really, it's a chamber, a modded valve, and a barrel. Very simple.

With a 3/4" sprinkler, a 36" barrel and 100psi, you should be in the ball park of 600fps with a 3.3 gram marble. That's 40 ft.lb, and nothing to take lightly.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about;

http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/pb-rifle-t151.html

It just doesn't get much simpler than that.

Give it some time, and you might surprise yourself with what you can do. :)


http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/high-pr ... 12803.html
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Unread postAuthor: Bando_Red » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:29 pm

Whats a good pump to invest in? Cheap preferably.I don't really care If I have to pump manually.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:00 pm

Bando_Red wrote:Ok,I've made ONE decision I think I am sure of.I know I'd like to make Pneumatics as opposed to to Combustion.not saying I'd never do a combustions,but pneumatics interest me far more.


Blahh, don't knock until you've tried it. There's no need making such a broad sweeping statement like that until you have worked with both. Each have their value.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:13 pm

starman wrote:There's no need making such a broad sweeping statement like that until you have worked with both. Each have their value.


That's true. I'm currently making a 2" simple combustion over 5' long (MASSIVE by my standards :D) I normally lean towards pneumatics but didn't opt for one in this case for the following reasons:

- I'm only staying here a month before returning home and there's no chance of taking any creations with me, so I didn't want something labour intensive.

- No compressor and I need something that can be fueled in seconds

- Noise and power are an issue, and it's much easier to make a powerful quiet combustion than a powerful quiet pneumatic
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Unread postAuthor: Brian the brain » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:30 pm

but didn't opt for one


You hurt my feelings!
:D

On a more serious note...I remember signing in on spudtech back in the day, and people were all trying to get me to build stuff like they do.
I was asking questions about unregged CO2 and what materials I could use.They thought I was crazy. ( DR, a senior member there, did anyway)
The general opinion seemed to be, big gun, low pressure is all you need.. :roll:



Things have changed quite a bit since then, but the mood remains the same.
I think we shouldn't try to stear noobs towards our way of doing things, in stead, we should focus more on helping them achieve THEIR goals.
Of course, we should give them usefull advice, based on our experience.
This will ensure we keep fresh minds coming to the hobby..

one more thing:

Don' t ever talk people out of pneumatics or I will bust your virtual lip.. :D

@Bando:

Your objectives are all feasable.
A blowgun will have enough flow for a .177 barrel.Other options are hammer valves, QEV's, or modded solenoids.All of wich can be used in conjunction with a traditional trigger.A blowgun provides it's own.

You can learn about these valves in the spud wiki.
You will obviously need an onboard reservoir and pump and a suited barrel.
If it;s true pump action, I remember one being posted on this site a couple of months ago, but I forgot who made it.



So...back to Jack-I can find any post on the net-smirking revenge... :D
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