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Paint ball RIFLE

Post questions and info about pneumatic (compressed gas) powered cannons here. This includes discussion about valves, pipe types, compressors, alternate gas setups, and anything else relevant.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:40 pm

pyromanic13, I’ve heard that to, but it doesn’t apply here the ball will be wadded to protect it from the rifling, so it doesn’t mater how perfect the ball is.

joannaardway, Backspin may improve accuracy, but tell me why have I never seen a mountain rifle with a “backspin inducer” instead of rifling?
Rifling is a science, but on this kind of arm it doesn’t have to be perfect.
Plus if the ball has backspin it arcs up hardly what I’d call accurate. I’ve seen what’s supposed to be “top-o’-da-line” hop-ups, there still far from accurate.
Loss of muzzle velocity, you do realize that I have to keep this thing below 300FPS right?

Recruit, what the heck are you talking about!?! If that is true than why do muzzleloaders require wadding? If you tell me muzzleloaders are inaccurate you’ve obviously gotten in over your head here.
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Unread postAuthor: Scope » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:22 pm

Backspin is what the flatline and the apex barels do.
they dont nessisarily effect accuracy
actualy my dad had one and he said it was less accurate
but the back spin makes the ball curve upwards counter acting gravity increasing the range
the result is a flatter trajectory.
it has the same effect that a curve ball has except the curve is backwards
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:25 pm

The term Hop-up describes the back-spin put on airsoft pellets and BB's to increase their range and (vertical) accuracy… an excerpt form Wikipedia

This webpage explains twist or rifling:
http://www.lostriverballistic.com/LRB/D ... -Twist.cfm

Rifling, as said on the before mentioned webpage, gives the projectile gyroscopic stability which increases not only range, and vertical accuracy, but also horizontal accuracy. Now tell me which one is better.
I’m currently in the process of making a rifling machine. The workings of which are, for now at least, confidential.
The barrel is not what I was requesting help with, I’ve already decided on that.
But thanks for the input
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:14 pm

About the loss of muzzle velocity - you lose muzzle velocity, you need more CO2 to get good results - you get less shots from a tank.

Please, if backspin is so damned inaccurate in your opinion, then tell me why Ragnarok can nail a 1" square target everytime with his new spin inducer - at more than 100 yards.

Aside from everything else, you'll reduce the strength of the pipe by rifling it.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:49 pm

I do not deny that backspin increases accuracy, nor that the pipe will be weakened by the rifling. I just prefer rifling, it’s been proven accurate, if it ain’t broke…
And if backspin is so accurate how come I’ve never seen a muzzleloader with a backspin inducer?
Now as I have already said; the barrel is not what I was requesting help with, I’ve already decided on that.
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Unread postAuthor: Scope » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:10 pm

ahhhh guys chill out.... backspin only is good with paintball or airsoft because the ammo is leaving at such a slow speed and is round that it helps counter gravity. It would most likely make a muzzle loader ball go up because of the speed. And yes it is more accurate up and down wise because it reduces the trajectory of the shot. but it at the same time adds spin to the paintball which if doesnt work out well causes thte shot ot spin off to the side. For example if you turn your gun so that the top is facing at a 45 degree angle to the right then the shot will curve up and out to the right... ive seen it happen it the same thing that happens when you get a chopped ball and your paintballs start to curve.
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Unread postAuthor: frankrede » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:58 pm

Muzzloaders are inaccurate compared to rifles.Get it right.
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Unread postAuthor: Recruit » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:26 am

judgment_arms wrote:Recruit, what the heck are you talking about!?! If that is true than why do muzzleloaders require wadding? If you tell me muzzleloaders are inaccurate you’ve obviously gotten in over your head here.

I am talking about this guy says the same thing and most muzzle loaders are in accurate *notice* I said most. http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/air_gun.html Go about half way down the text on that link.

Come sense will tell you the same thing.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:33 pm

Allow me to educate you.
First off my I present to you the “world most accurate BB gun”!!
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=617
Now then as for firearms, using a muzzleloader Henry Chatillion would regularly drop buffalo at ranges of three hundred yards! Now if you’re thinking so what, consider this: the M16 the U.S.’s main battle rifle can’t even shoot that far! It’s maximum effective range is about one hundred and fifty yards, and at that range it doesn’t even have enough energy left to drop a man! And finally MUZZLELOADERS ARE RIFLES!!! Or at least the one I’m talking about, you must be thinking about the guns used in the Napoleonic Wars! I’m talking about the Plains Rifle.
Now then about that marble “rifle”, first off rifling it DID improve accuracy, did it not?
Second, I may have missed it but as far as I know, he didn’t know the rate of twist that the rifling had, did he? This Magnus effect, did you not notice that he said “musket” a musket is smoothbore, and I’m talking about Muzzleloaded RIFLES. Now then unlike the guy in the link, I know what rate of twist I need to stabilize a paintball, it’s 1 in 41 inches. And if you wish to know how I figured this out, I used the formula that is found here:
http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm

now then I’ve said my peace, please do a little more research next time.
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:12 am

I feel I must correct you on some of your facts. Your research is flawed.

Effective range is defined as (more or less): "The greatest range where accuracy is still decent and the round still has stopping power."

If the US army is using a rifle that won't kill at 150 yards, then I'm surprised that their army isn't slaughtered everytime it goes into battle.

As a matter of fact, the M16A2's effective range is 350 meters (390 yards or so)- and it will easily put a man down at that range. A muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (about Mach 3) won't run out in 150 yards.

The bull-pup design (and British) SA80 has an effective range of OVER 500 metres (550 yards - and it will still kill) - it's far more accurate, although it has lower muzzle velocities, than the M16A2.

Scope is right about the back-spin/muzzle loader issue. Anything using solid propellant just fires too fast to attempt to spin the ammo - it would either destroy the spin device, or have it fly off at a very high angle.

Your "world's most accurate BB-gun" is clearly defined as smooth bore in the technical specs. So, what is this supposed to say?

The greenhill formula (the one used to calculate rifling) has to include the specific gravity (density) of the bullet - so how that rifling formula works without it, I don't know.
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Unread postAuthor: Recruit » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:57 am

Ok lets look at your pic and what you said

Ok here is why you have to wad a paintball to get anything that could be called accuracy
The first one is what would happen if you had rifled barrel that a paintball would fit tightly in.
The second is why any paintball gun, smoothbore or not, would be inaccurate if the paintball doesn’t fit tightly.
And the third is the solution.

....................l
Now read this\/

Allow me to educate you.
First off my I present to you the “world most accurate BB gun”!!
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=617
Now then as for firearms, using a muzzleloader Henry Chatillion would regularly drop buffalo at ranges of three hundred yards!

Ok Now look at the link I gave you regarding wadding and the his discovery that the wadding does not just drop off but push past the round creating a side spin lowering accuracy and what he did to counter that.

Also that bb gun does not use wadding, and do you honestly have any idea how big a buffalo is and hitting one at 300ft is nothing. Daniel Boone and David Croket two of the worlds best sharp shooters could take them down at 1/2 a mile to 3/4 of a mile (1/2 a mile is above twice the range that guy was hitting them).

In short if this does not covince you them continue but when you can't hit a volkswagen beetle at 300ft DONT COME WHINING.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:23 pm

joannaardway, the 5.56mm or .223 CAN NOT drop a man past 150 YARDS with one shot, not with the dinky little 60grain bullets that the military uses. The muzzle energy is approximately 705ft-lbs, and that drops fast.
The “world’s most accurate BB gun” is a muzzleloader, yes I know it’s a smoothbore, but everybody was saying that a muzzleloader is inaccurate so I proved them wrong.
I used tree different formulas, the one I showed you was just the easiest to find. But all had pretty much the same results.
Oh and the only reason are guy aren’t slaughtered is because 90% of the firefights happen at between 50-80 yards or something like that. And the OP.FOR. can’t shoot worth crap. The .223cal round is very week at 50yards a .22 magnum is just as deadly, as a mater of fact it is more deadly because it won’t go all the way through and it’s lead, so the guy on the receiving end winds up with 80grains of lead sitting in there gut.
Recruit, I stand corrected. IF your bore is the EXACT same diameter as your projectile and your projectile is perfect, then you don’t need a wad, but, uh, last time I checked paintballs aren’t as precise as a BB. And plus have you ever seen .68 diameter pipe?
The guy in your link was an idiot Ok. If you do it right, the rifling that is, then you have no problem.
I SAID THREE HUNDRED YARDS DORKNOB!! Were the heck did you get three hundred feet? Ok a yes Daniel Boone and David Croket drop buffalo at half a mile. but they used long rifles, Henry Chatillion was using a Hawken, which is a plains rifle with a barrel about half the length of a long rifle. And at three hundred YARDS he dropped them with clean shots through the lungs. And I still don’t believe that Daniel and Davie dropped buffalo at ¾ of a mile. Post a link and prove it.
Once again, WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT FEET? and what part of “paintball rifle” and “three hundred feet per second” do you not under stand? I’d be happy for an accurate range of half that, seeing how most paintball guns have an accurate range of…POINT BLANK!!!
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Unread postAuthor: joannaardway » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:29 am

The M16A2 has a muzzle energy of around 1350 ft lbs.

Most PLANNED firefights happen at 200 yards. Trust me, I know, having had several relatives in the army (including one in the SAS for a period).
Some unexpected ones may spring up at less, but you don't plan for a 200 yard firefight when your guns only shoot 150.

If the M16 can't shoot for crap, then the US army would have switched to a different rifle decades ago.
Your effective range figure is far far too low. The 350 metres I posted is considered a minimum. Some people will reckon on a 500 metre range.
The AK-47 is barely worth the metal it's made from. Yet, it too, can kill way beyond 150 yards.

In BB-gun terms - a muzzle loader will be more accurate, but that doesn't have to apply to a full rifle. Besides, at 5 yards, it's hard to be inaccurate.

Lets forget muzzle loaders for now. You're not building one, so it means jacksh*t.

.68 diameter pipe exists (exactly .68 as well) - it's probably the reason why paintballs are .68 cal. As D_Hall put it, if your industry is trying to get on it's feet, then a cheap, seamless and common pipe is very useful.

I also believe doOrknob has an extra o in it if we're being picky.
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Unread postAuthor: judgment_arms » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:30 pm

joannaardway, ok maybe your right about the effective range of an M16A2, I am by far no expert on plastic guns, I’m just retelling what I’ve been told. I do know this, the AK47 is a good gun (the Russian made ones, not the Chinese copies.) and under normal combat conditions it won’t jam, you have to be trying to get it to jam to jam it. It is nearly twice as powerful as the M16a2 and has twice the accurate range. I do not now that much about the M16A2 except this, it sucks. The AK47 can’t jam, the M16A2 has a forward bolt assist because it jams so much. I hate the M16A2 it’s a piece of crap plastic overpowered .22, so it would not surprise me if you know more about than I, because I don’t care about and obviously you do.

You know what? Your right I’m not making a muzzleloader, I’m making a revolving rifle.

That’s nice, I’m glad you found .68 diameter pipe, I’m happy for you. But I haven’t seen it at Home-Cheepo or Lowes, so I didn’t know it existed, I don’t spend countless hours on line looking for pipe I’ve got more important thins to do like fishing and bird hunting.

Oh and, my bad, so I made a mistake nobody on this earth is perfect
Now as a legitimate question, who is this D_hall guy?
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Unread postAuthor: Pete Zaria » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:59 pm

judgment_arms wrote:joannaardway, the 5.56mm or .223 CAN NOT drop a man past 150 YARDS with one shot, not with the dinky little 60grain bullets that the military uses. The muzzle energy is approximately 705ft-lbs, and that drops fast.rifle.


First of all, *anything* can drop a man past 150 yards if the shooter knows what they're doing. You could drop a man at 150 yards with a high power pellet gun if you're good with it. But that's beside the point.

Go shoot a watermellon with a .223 from 500 yards. It will explode. Lots of little bits of watermellon. I've done it.

The M16/AR15 family of weapons is used by the US army for a reason. They may be expensive, but they're well built, accurate, and have sufficient power. My good friend has a semi-automatic (thus legal for a civilian to own) AR15 with a scope thats accurate to over 500 yards.

You guys need to read up on your $hit before you post stuff like this...

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
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