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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:28 pm

In theory that should work, but never does.

By having an extra-ordinary class, doesn't limit expensive or well built cannons in anyway. If anything it gives them more chance of getting through to the finals because there will only be a small amount of cannons allegeable for this class.

If I spent $1000 on a cannon, and didn't make it any better then if I built the same thing with $30, I'd be a very disappointed man. Even if the whole cannon isn't metal, you could get a very nice breech-loader and valve machined for $1000 (incl materials) for a cannon of reasonable size. Surely one that would out-do anything that can be built for under $100 even.

By having judges for the last round to find out the winner, this also helps balance out the cannons a bit more. Because the judges will have to look beyond certain aspects and as I said in my post above, innovation will be top priority. If we had a poll for the final round instead of judges, I can guarantee you, a cannon will be voted on purely just for looks or power.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:48 pm

So I guess i'm out then. Well if so, that sucks being punished for making a great cannon. Isn't that everyone's goal? To reach as far as you possibly can, using every resource at your disposal to create something you never thought possible? I never thought I would build something like this. But if it gets the boot then so be it. I won't be able to afford any other kind of cannon for the contest as work is painfully slow. The Venom was my only shot.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:53 pm

So I guess i'm out then.

there will be a rule that no production cannons or companies can enter, only personal entries.

Because of that? Well so far, it is only a personal cannon. The only thing that makes it production is the fact that you have all your plans etc and can build one for somebody else. But that's no different from a cannon anyone else builds on the site. Everyone can replicate their own cannon with no trouble.

But the fact that your cannon is built before the contest may be an issue.

Anyway, as you said in your previous post:
but I do know that a very expensive cannon could really easily lose to a $30.00 cannon. I think that a well thought out cannon with creativity put into it, perhaps with some unique features will stand out regardless of price and resources used.


So you can still build a cheap, ~$100 cannon made from PVC and whatnot and still have it possibly win.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:01 pm

MrCrowley wrote:
So I guess i'm out then.

there will be a rule that no production cannons or companies can enter, only personal entries.

Because of that? Well so far, it is only a personal cannon. The only thing that makes it production is the fact that you have all your plans etc and can build one for somebody else. But that's no different from a cannon anyone else builds on the site. Everyone can replicate their own cannon with no trouble.

But the fact that your cannon is built before the contest may be an issue.

Anyway, as you said in your previous post:
but I do know that a very expensive cannon could really easily lose to a $30.00 cannon. I think that a well thought out cannon with creativity put into it, perhaps with some unique features will stand out regardless of price and resources used.


So you can still build a cheap, ~$100 cannon made from PVC and whatnot and still have it possibly win.


Well thats true. If the Venom is out for being pre-competition then thats no big deal. Maybe I will try to make something really cool from super cheap parts. It would be tons of fun without a doubt.
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Unread postAuthor: jonnyboy » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:04 pm

Sorry to hear about that pcguy. :cry:

A ten dollar entry fee sounds fair. Send it to pcguys paypal account with your username so he knows your in the contest. He could open a forum and make the people that sent in money special users so they can post in the fore mentioned forum.

I think July 1st may be a better deadline. As most of the posters here will lose 2 weeks or so studying for finals and whatnot. Besides it take time to produce quality work.
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Unread postAuthor: jook13 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:09 pm

What about accepting donations from those of us who are willing (and able) to sweeten the pot?

And I love the idea of the sponsors donating products for the cause, there are about 100 things from each site that I know I would love to play with.
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Unread postAuthor: jonnyboy » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:39 pm

You would only get a couple people to donate. It also weeds out stupid cannons that were put together in seconds.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:47 pm

@Mr crowley
By having judges for the last round to find out the winner, this also helps balance out the cannons a bit more.
that's a risky thing you know... first of all, how are you going to select judges ( expect at least 20 PMs - 'Why didn't you choose me as a judge - I thought we were friends / Is it because I am black/white/eskimo/gay' )?


and secondly, I am sure that some would disagree with the results simply becasue of the fact that... IMO this would only build unneccesary tension among members and contestants




I have an idea... each contestant could get points (from 1 - 10 or 1-100) in several categories, like innovation, looks, power etc.
then we could either select winners for each category or do the same but also select one with the greatest amount of points in all categories


What about accepting donations from those of us who are willing (and able) to sweeten the pot?
I think there is no need for entry fees and prizes as for most of us winning a competition on spudfiles is the ultimate prize... but I like the idea that any one who wants to donate money could do so
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:59 pm

that's a risky thing you know... first of all, how are you going to select judges ( expect at least 20 PMs - 'Why didn't you choose me as a judge - I thought we were friends / Is it because I am black/white/eskimo/gay' )?


and secondly, I am sure that some would disagree with the results simply becasue of the fact that... IMO this would only build unneccesary tension among members and contestants

Well all mods who reply to the request and will be active during the judging and not enter any cannons, will automatically be picked. From there on, we (PCGUY and the Mods) will discuss further candidates who aren't entering.

When looking for mods, we discuss members who we think would be a good choice. Same thing here more or less. If you don't get picked, tough.
There's no real advantage or 'power' by being a judge.

If you (speaking generally here) are one to complain that you weren't picked as a judge, well obviously you will not have been a suitable judge in the first place.

How would it build unnecessary tension? The mods and PCGUY will devise a judging criteria. The judges would make their assessments of who they think should come 1st, 2nd, 3rd and why using a point system so we can take in to account innovation and such (which will give more points then 'power' or 'aesthetics' for example). Then the judge will probably PM the results to PCGUY and PCGUY would either do a total tally of points (adding all the points for each cannon as given by the judges) or just a general ranking based on how many times a cannon is chosen as 1st, 2nd and 3rd by the judges combined.

The members will be able to vote in the preliminary stages which will decide who wins each class. By having the judges chose the winners, it stops members from voting for cannons purely for power or looks.

It's completely fair and there wont be any prejudice. I really don't see what the problem is. It'll be a lot more fair then having members vote for the winner. Remember that it wont only be senior members voting, but new members who have a high enough post count to vote.

If someone disagrees, well tough. That's life. And to be honest, I don't know what members are white/black/eskimo or gay aside from members i've seen pictures of and know very well, which is fairly limited.


I have an idea... each contestant could get points (from 1 - 10 or 1-100) in several categories, like innovation, looks, power etc.
then we could either select winners for each category or do the same but also select one with the greatest amount of points in all categories

That's similar to what the judges will be doing anyway. Plus, with your idea, someone has to go through the organise all the points from every member. Most likely you will get new members who don't really know what true innovation is and will probably give a piston valved cannon 9/10 for innovation.

By keeping it to a select few senior members, you don't have those problems.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:30 pm

@mrCrowley
If you (speaking generally here) are one to complain that you weren't picked as a judge, well obviously you will not have been a suitable judge in the first place
this is a nice example of an ad hominem argument or maybe even a so called loaded question... :wink: but that still doesn't convince me that it won't be a problem

I live long enough to expect such things to happend


also I understand that you want to avoid a situation where the biggest/most powerful gun would get most votes...

but doing it in this way just ruins everything...
first of all, becasue you can't presuppose that all new member or members with low post count can't vote responsibly and/or that they don't have enough experience to do so...

quite a lot of them were lurking the site for years before joining and if if they are new they as outsiders can look at things in a different way than those who have been posting and browsing the forum for a few years

secondly, I like the fact that spudfiles is, in a way, more egalitarian than other sites... and I like it the way it is,
and that's most likely that the reason why it is the most popular spudgunning site with members from all over the world... by stating that only a hanful of members will select the winner you pretty much ruin it...

finally, I think that vast majority of members are responsible enough to take ingenuity of the design into consideration when voting... esspecially when instructed to do so

as a teacher I have experience in judging and marking others - and trust me if it's not 100% transparent (like a multiple choice test or something like that) there will be people who think that it wasn't fair
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:25 pm

OK cool. I've haven't been able to checkup on the progress of this much....looks like it's got the OK and getting good discussion.

I think I saw an early post recommending ending competition in June....I think that's way too soon. How about more toward the end of the Summer. That will give everyone plenty of time to consider and tinker with their project as well as possibly save up the dough to get it done. June is essentially only 6 weeks away.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:33 pm

first of all, becasue you can't presuppose that all new member or members with low post count can't vote responsibly and/or that they don't have enough experience to do so...

And you can't presuppose that somehow the judges will be racist, bias or have some form of prejudice towards some members.

Similar to a jury in a court of law, except with us it will be judges and we (the mods and admin) can choose who we think will make a suitable judge and who wont be bias.

By having judges, you can be guaranteed we:
Wont be bias
Will judge all cannons accordingly to a set criteria with innovation in mind
The judging will be done promptly and fairly
The decision is official and final with no "ifs or buts"
The judges are senior, experienced and can take all aspects of the build in to consideration (cost, availability, age of builder, innovation, power, ergonomics, aesthetics, design, practicability, improvisation etc).

By having everyone judge the winner(s), you can problems like:
*New members, or inexperienced members, who don't know the value of certain designs, builds, improvisations, innovations etc
*Not every member may get to vote due to some special reason and feel like their vote should be counted later on
*People will vote for their own cannons and give them full ratings
*If people can't vote for their own cannons, they may strike deals with other members so they vote for their own cannon
*Members may make multiple accounts to vote for their own cannon
*Some members who aren't in the competition may not bother voting
*It will take far longer, be far more unorganised and unprofessional and inaccurate if members vote.
*Votes have to be tallied, members have to be checked for validity and honest voting.
*More room for error when tallying votes
etc etc

I could go on forever.


When you told me that I need to make the assumption all people who vote are of equal expertise or at least a decent amount of expertise, you also need to consider that the judges will be the same and have no prejudices.

The fact that there will only be a few judges, who are senior, experienced, fair, not biased, reliable and have no connection with other members over the voting, makes it seem like it is the far better option.



I still can't see your issue with having judges? We've done it before and it worked fine. There are just far too many things to go wrong by having the entire forum be the final decider.

If you can point out to me some fair and realistic problems with having judges, please do. Because I don't see any.
And remember to take in to consideration the mods and PCGUY will only be picking the 'cream of the crop' of senior members to be judges.
If we feel we can't get enough reliable judges, it may just be down to the Mods and PCGUY.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:13 pm

A few judges that have proven themselves to be fair and recognise each component of a cannon would be better than a poll.

Few questions:
1) When can we officially enter a cannon?
2) Does the entire cannon have to be built after the competition begins; could I begin working now?
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:50 am

I am not saying that judges won't be fair... but there will be people who will consider them not to be fair just becasue they take competition too emotional etc.

you can't pretent it can't be a problem...

sorry if you take it personally - I am just trying to provide an opposite point of view
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:05 am

Carlman wrote:the last contest was a huge sucess, it brought us many new concepts and guns


I don't see why it should be any different from the previous contest.

First prize went to a complex golfball semi-auto, while second prize went to a stupidly cheap and simple co-axial pneumatic that was nonetheless innovative because of its scale. You don't have to spend a lot of money to flesh out a good idea, so all talk of restricting budget is largely irrelevant. Also, what's wrong with having the forum decide the winners? Doesn't get more democratic than that ;)

I would agree with a nominal entry fee, say $5, if enough members take part (which I'm sure they will) then it will amount to a considerable wad of cash for the winners - and I would recommend that they donate at least part of their winnings to the upkeep of the forum, so that way everyone benefits :)
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