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My 2 cents worth on judges..

Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:08 am

inonickname wrote:A few judges that have proven themselves to be fair and recognise each component of a cannon would be better than a poll.

Few questions:
1) When can we officially enter a cannon?
2) Does the entire cannon have to be built after the competition begins; could I begin working now?


I'm wondering due to the posturing on who gets to vote and why, etc... maybe it is time to look to an outside qualified judge. I'm thinking if there is a good college nearby, some of the professors from the physics department may be asked to join a panel of judges. :) Would this satisfy our need for impartial judging?
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Re: My 2 cents worth on judges..

Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:11 am

Technician1002 wrote:I'm thinking if there is a good college nearby, some of the professors from the physics department may be asked to join a panel of judges. :) Would this satisfy our need for impartial judging?


I don't think someone outside the hobby could be a good judge, in the sense that you would have had to have worked on similar ideas and projects in order to appreciate how innovative something is or how much effort has gone into it. Personally, I would let the forum members vote.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:25 am

A few judges that have proven themselves to be fair and recognise each component of a cannon would be better than a poll

but there will be people who will consider them not to be fair just becasue they take competition too emotional etc.

what's wrong with having the forum decide the winners? Doesn't get more democratic than that


If it was the forum voting, I'd still want a point system as POLAND_SPUD described, but that would just create more problems then it's worth.

So if you have the froum voting you can either have a poll, which is too simple and cannons will be voted on for the wrong reasons. Or you can have a point system, which means every member who wants to vote needs to write out a complicated points tally of what they judge EACH cannon on. 4-5 classes, 2-3 cannons per class. That's 10-15 cannons every voting member will need to write a points table for.

Not to mention members can make more then one account fairly easily, they can 'bribe' or strike deals with other members to vote for their cannons and you are still left with inexperienced members giving inexperienced reviews of cannons. People wont be able to vote for their own cannons, and the points system will take so long to do per member, people who don't enter might not even bother voting.

The votes will need to be tallied and members cross-referenced for making more then one account, possibly PM systems checked to make sure members aren't voting for other members on purpose etc.

Members will start giving cannons ridiculous scores like 10/10 for power, or 1/10 for power just because they like/hate that person.


Now do you all see why forum voting is not a good idea? I can't explain it more simple then that, it seems quite obvious to me that there will be too much time and effort on mine and the other mods and PCGUY to enforce rules and restrictions to forum voting. If you have 20 people vote, thats 200-250 tables (which are made up of things like ergonomics, power, aesthetics, innovation etc) to count and tally.

Plus all the other reasons i've stated above.

POLAND_SPUD, if you think the judges will be too emotional or people will think it's unfair, then you probably don't realise who we would choose for a judge. If you are worried one of the judges may dislike you (when they're chosen), then PM PCGUY about it and we'll make sure thta judge doesn't judge your cannon unfairly (based upon the scores other judges have also given your cannon).

I can't see how judges will be unfair. If you (general) feel a judge has been unfair, PM PCGUY. But I cannot stress to you how controlled judges will be compared to a lose forum votes. And I also don't see how judges will be 'emotionally involved'. We will simply mark the cannon based on a criteria, not much more to it.


Now, if you still have more problems, please bring up some valid points and address the issues with forum voting I have made.

I'm thinking if there is a good college nearby, some of the professors from the physics department may be asked to join a panel of judges.

A college nearby the internet? :wink:

Aside from that, I don't think they would be good judges as they would only have expertise in the physics behind a cannon and may fail to understand what's basic and what's innovative in our community. They will also have to become members and vote online in a panel of judges etc.
They probably wont even know what they're trying to mark. They'll see a bunch of PVC and how will they know what that is in terms of power, innovation, ergonomics, aesthetics etc in relation to our community?

Good that you're bringing up some good ideas, though I don't think it'd work out. :)
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Unread postAuthor: jook13 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:41 am

People are getting way too picky about how the winner is judged. I could care less if it is a poll or if it is chosen by judges. Either way the best entries will surely stick out. I am just glad that this thing is getting started.

My main problem with having judges is we will miss out on seeing some key senior members' designs.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:20 am

I understand the issues with having a member vote, but I don't think there's the sort of community here where people would resort to cheating in order to win - it would be obvious if an average cannon did better than a superior one.

Are there any greviances about public voting last time around though? I do have one actually, I would have liked to see this one do better :)
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:31 am

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote: - it would be obvious if an average cannon did better than a superior one.



The problem is when (not if) there is not an agreement on which has the best technical merits and the "Obvious superior" one didn't win.

This is compounded by prize money and the suspicion of cheating.

Pumpkin Chunkin has no prize money for this very reason. It's bragging rights alone along with a traveling trophy.
http://www.thepunkinchunkinbook.com/
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:38 am

My main problem with having judges is we will miss out on seeing some key senior members' designs.

You mean because some senior members will rather judge, then enter the competition?

I would stress to any senior member thinking of doing that, to rather enter the cannon. Hopefully we will see with this competition, members who enter, actually have something good to contribute. Not many people would bother paying the entry fee just to enter a normal cannon unless they had donation in mind.

I'm looking forward to this competition now. Not sure if i'll be able to pull anything together, we'll have to see :)
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Unread postAuthor: jook13 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:55 am

You mean because some senior members will rather judge, then enter the competition?


Exactaly. But more like they would feel like it is their duty or some s**t. IN GENERAL the highest posters and the moderaters know more than others about this hobby, so if they cant enter due to their voting duties, we miss out on their efforts. Notice how I highlighted "in general".

But whatever, so what. There are positives and negatives to either side of the argument.

I am down for having an entry fee. I am also down for allowing the willing to enter a little extra cash to make the prize bigger. I have put so much money into this hobby one fitting at a time, a little more wont hurt.

And as a side argument, what about having a section of the compitetion dedicated to aesthetics? I may be alone here, but I think it is pretty important to have your cannon look nice. It shows that extra level of care that is taken when building.

Sorry for the rant, I dont want to further the arguments, I am just throwing out my 2 cents before things are set in stone.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:11 am

jook13 wrote:
You mean because some senior members will rather judge, then enter the competition?


Exactaly. But more like they would feel like it is their duty or some s**t. IN GENERAL the highest posters and the moderaters know more than others about this hobby, so if they cant enter due to their voting duties, we miss out on their efforts. Notice how I highlighted "in general".

I am down for having an entry fee.

And as a side argument, what about having a section of the compitetion dedicated to aesthetics? I may be alone here, but I think it is pretty important to have your cannon look nice. It shows that extra level of care that is taken when building.



Entry fees can be a problem for an international internet competion. The cost of currency exchanges tend to take a bite out of smaller amounts.

I'm not too pickey about the judging, although I'm not too inclined to send money. I don't have a pay pal or other account and my "Bookeeper" wouldn't approve as we are watchin our spending money closely.

Many of my projects are more junkyard wars oriented for this reason. Disposable propane and freon bottles? Free! :D The t shirt competion did have a $$$ limit on the launcher.

Some of the under 18 school kids don't have an account to send electronic funds.


Asthetics is pretty much subjective. Might as well send that right to Gippeto. Man does he do nice work!
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:57 am

Maybe use both a forum poll and a set of judges?
The judges could use the poll results as a guideline or the judges will only judge the cannons on the top half of the poll results.
Or some hybrid system where the vote of a judge counts as 10 or adds up an extra 50% to the votes for that cannon.

There are many voting systems possible. Now pick one! :P
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:02 am

How about judges for the official stuff; like anything involving prizes and a "favorite cannon" contest where every forum member can vote for the 3 most popular cannons, with nothing but fame and bragging rights as a reward?
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:14 am

That sounds good.
Judges judge actual prize contest, members only vote for "favorite cannon" contest.
Judges could take the the votes into account when deciding.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:08 am

POLAND_SPUD, if you think the judges will be too emotional
I meant that contesters can get emotional not the judges....

my point is that even if the judges were 100% fair there would be people who would consider that they they didn't win because 'that afro guy from aus hates me' :wink:

and seriously stop taking this discussion personally... the way in which you react as one of the future judges to constructive criticism aimed at making the competion better just reflects how people will react when their cool gun don't win

(ps I've never been good at conditional sentences so PM me if my point is difficult to understand)
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Unread postAuthor: rp181 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:33 am

The best choice is clearly to have a computer randomly pick a cannon.......


In either case, i do not think it matters. There is always one that goes overboard, and is clearly better than all the others.
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Unread postAuthor: starman » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:58 am

I am a little befuddled at the concern that the judging will be overly biased or skewed.... as if voting from the masses wouldn't have some built in biases and myriad other problems that have already been spelled out. Will the judges have some personal biases...of course...but what motivation would they have for not judging on the real merits...what would they have to gain by not doing so? The answer is...nothing.

This isn't Boeing and Lockheed going after the next jet fighter contract for goodness sakes.
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