Let's start another debate here shall we?


Postby aturner » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:26 am

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">aTurner~What I have a problem with, is when Nav portrays all Muslims as evil people that are not trustworthy and are deserving extermination. So my question to Nav is why does he seem to think we can liberate Iraq and spread freedom there? If they are going to turn on us anyway, then why bother?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Navigator7
[br]Because it's the right thing to do. It's not the easy thing to do....but it is the right thing to do.
We take our freedoms for granted. Live without yours for a week and see.
The world...let alone America should never allow genocidal dictators to experience comfort even for a moment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Removing dictators is easy to do. But changing the hearts and minds of a nation can be very difficult. Some nations seem to have a habit of allowing "genocidal dictators" to rise to power.

I agree with you, that sometimes the right thing is not easy to do. Sometimes the US can play a key role in spreading democracy. However, is there ever a point when we should decide not to use our police as the police for the rest of the world? (Darfur?) If the people in a country don't place a high value freedom, then how can we make them yearn for freedom?

Is it worth one drop of American blood for these muslims that you said would turn on us anyway? Worth it for these muslims that you have said are biblically damned?

I have literally been praying that this recent troop surge is successful in stabilizing Iraq and ending the in-fighting. But if this recent troop surge does not have a clear and positive outcome, then I think it will be time to begin a pull out of our troops.
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Postby Navigator7 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:57 am

Aturner...Ok you make sense again.

Pulling out of this battle in the middle east ends nothing.
It's not over if we leave.
We can't just walk away!

The battle will come here.

Taking the battle to the enemy IS protecting American life.
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Postby Mr.Plow » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:14 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The world...let alone America should never allow genocidal dictators to experience comfort even for a moment.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<a href="http://users.adelphia.net/~enitria/trish_wilson/blog/archives/images/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg">Especially when we're helping solidify their power</a>
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Postby An Appple Pie » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:33 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Navigator7</i>
<br><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by An Appple Pie</i>
I'm going to have to disagree here. You seem to be forgetting that our [presidential administration's] justification for starting the current war was on the faulty assumption that Iraq had WMD's and was related to the 9/11 bombings.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Start by getting your facts straight.
The fact America and the president is fighting two wars....which has been established...might lead you to the second clue...it doesn't serve the liberal media to show Bush succeeding in any endeavor.

A history lesson will show the entire Left and the Right believed Saddam was a threat to the world and said so on many occassions.

What is unusual is somebody took action.

Your statement above is just canned spam no fit enough to feed a feral cat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah sure, a lot of people thought Saddam was an evil person who shouldn't be in power. Almost all people, left and right don't disagree on that. However, there are lots of other places that harbor/fund terrorist training facilities that we can attack in the Middle East with equal, if not more justification. Saudi Arabia, Iran? But that's not the issue here.

The problem is whether or not we should be fighting in this conflict. Regardless of whether we started it or not, it isn't fair to put more American lives at risk for a cause that few Americans agree with today. Again, I'm sure lots of people thought it was a good idea at the time. But that doesn't matter. We can't keep thinking about the past like that.

The people in the Middle East who would be willing to attack our country are either hoping that we leave or already planning to attack us. Therefore, staying in Iraq doesn't seem to be the best way to improve our foreign relations right now. Like aturner said,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is it worth one drop of American blood for these muslims that you said would turn on us anyway?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
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Postby An Apple Pie » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:54 pm

Well I am not going to get caught up in this, but I just thought I would throw some numbers out there.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The American military -- once a staunch supporter of President Bush and the Iraq war -- has grown increasingly pessimistic about chances for victory, according to the 2006 Military Times Poll.

For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president's handling of the war than approve of it. Barely one-third of service members approve of the way the president is handling the war.

When the military was feeling most optimistic about the war -- in 2004 -- 83 percent of poll respondents thought success in Iraq was likely. This year, that number has shrunk to 50 percent.

Only 35 percent of the military members polled this year said they approve of the way President Bush is handling the war, while 42 percent said they disapproved. The president's approval rating among the military is only slightly higher than for the population as a whole. In 2004, when his popularity peaked, 63 percent of the military approved of Bush's handling of the war. While approval of the president's war leadership has slumped, his overall approval remains high among the military.

Just as telling, in this year's poll only 41 percent of the military said the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, down from 65 percent in 2003.

There's more. As you may have heard, Defense Secretary Robert Gates recently held a photo-op sit-down with some of the troops in Iraq. By sheer coincidence, all of the assembled troops said they support an increase in troops to Iraq.

That's strikingly at odds with what this poll found, though. The poll asks the following question:

We currently have 145,000 troops in Iraq and Kuwait. How many troops do you think we should have there?
Here are the answers:
Zero: 13%
0-50,000: 7%
50,000-144,000: 6%
145,000: 13%
146,000-200,000: 22%
200,000+: 16%
No opinion/Don't know: 23%
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Seems a little contradictory that more people are opposed to the war than for it, yet the largest group of people (disregarding "No opinion/Don't know") think that we should send more troops. I mean 38% think we should send more, 26% think we should send less, and 13% think that we should keep the same amount.
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Postby Navigator7 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:35 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by An Apple Pie
[br]Well I am not going to get caught up in this, but I just thought I would throw some numbers out there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So why the post?

From my perspective, the Liberal Left caused 911, they have been throwing America under the bus at every turn, and now the left wants to guarantee America fails at the war on terror with every yellow idea they come up with.

The war is on....and it starts right here in America.
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Postby An Appple Pie » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:08 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Navigator7
[br]
So why the post?

From my perspective, the Liberal Left caused 911, they have been throwing America under the bus at every turn, and now the left wants to guarantee America fails at the war on terror with every yellow idea they come up with.

The war is on....and it starts right here in America.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What are you trying to say here? How did the "Liberal Left" cause September 11th? Do you honestly believe the bigoted BS that comes out of your mouth (or fingers as it may be)? You constantly complain about the biased media, and then you turn around and spew out your own biased reality.

And An Apple Pie said why he posted. He wanted to throw some numbers out there for the rest of us.
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Postby spuzi14 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:34 pm

Hey other Appple Pie...you need to research a few of Nav's posts, particulary the ones that me and him went back and forth in. I'm 15 and had my own opinion of the world and I tried proving it to him. I realized it was wrong because I was missing details. The stuff he posted in these topics would help you understand Navs point of view.

By the way Nav, it might not be a bad idea to sticky a topic in the General Discussion explaining how you see things because to be honest your opinion is different from most peoples' opinions on here. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out it might be helpful.

I personally think sending more troops is a ridiculous plan but I don't have any other ideas and there isn't much else we can do. Pulling out is like forgetting to poke holes in the spud you're about to microwave...it's gonna blow.

The media needs shutdown....they seem to be nothing but a melting pot of bullshit. People like the smell of it and they love to taste it, they also don't know how or want to resist it. If you ignore what the new anchor is saying, they actually are funny to listen to. The tone they use and the way the move their voice it funny.
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Postby An Appple Pie » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:46 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spuzi14
[br]Hey other Appple Pie...you need to research a few of Nav's posts, particulary the ones that me and him went back and forth in. I'm 15 and had my own opinion of the world and I tried proving it to him. I realized it was wrong because I was missing details. The stuff he posted in these topics would help you understand Navs point of view.

By the way Nav, it might not be a bad idea to sticky a topic in the General Discussion explaining how you see things because to be honest your opinion is different from most peoples' opinions on here. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out it might be helpful.

I personally think sending more troops is a ridiculous plan but I don't have any other ideas and there isn't much else we can do. Pulling out is like forgetting to poke holes in the spud you're about to microwave...it's gonna blow.

The media needs shutdown....they seem to be nothing but a melting pot of bullshit. People like the smell of it and they love to taste it, they also don't know how or want to resist it. If you ignore what the new anchor is saying, they actually are funny to listen to. The tone they use and the way the move their voice it funny.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah whatever. I've read enough of Nav's posts to know that they're largely unfounded and generally just aimed at name-calling the opponents of his perspective.

I agree about the news though. It is usually pretty funny. It seems though that the media seems to be talking more and more <i>about</i> the media these days. It's a self-fulfilled piece of journalism. Have you seen MSNBC?
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Postby Navigator7 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:56 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by An Appple Pie
[br]<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Navigator7
[br]
So why the post?

From my perspective, the Liberal Left caused 911, they have been throwing America under the bus at every turn, and now the left wants to guarantee America fails at the war on terror with every yellow idea they come up with.

The war is on....and it starts right here in America.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


What are you trying to say here? How did the "Liberal Left" cause September 11th? Do you honestly believe the bigoted BS that comes out of your mouth (or fingers as it may be)? You constantly complain about the biased media, and then you turn around and spew out your own biased reality.

And An Apple Pie said why he posted. He wanted to throw some numbers out there for the rest of us.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You haven't a clue what I'm trying to present as you haven't the brains to understand the freedoms placed at your feet. Our freedoms are now used as a doormat. I've backed up every one of my claims. The Liberal Left is Killing America.

I don't expect any relief from the ignorance displayed here until the next attack by terrorism....

Any yes...the Liberals are making it easy for the terrorists and that is treason.
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