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Evolution: The individual, education, and overal
by fullmetaljacket » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:55 pm
and not forgetting the epic <a href="http://localhost/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11937&SearchTerms=creation,"> Does evil exist?</a> debate
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by Navigator7 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:08 am
How come you are afraid of lack of "control", Mr. Plow?
LOL
So many posters always got to get a jab in - announcing "they are outta here''....after this last post.
Who is outta control anyway?
I'm simply enjoying pleasant banter out here in the country waiting fro spring to come.
LOL
So many posters always got to get a jab in - announcing "they are outta here''....after this last post.
Who is outta control anyway?
I'm simply enjoying pleasant banter out here in the country waiting fro spring to come.
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by SPG » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:32 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arborman495
[br]What "flaws" there are none. All "flaws" are purposeful
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Testicles.
I'll explain more. The reason mammals testicles are outside the body is that the enzymic reaction used in the creation of spermatazoa works best when at a lower temperature than the rest of your body.
Now think for a second how open to damage that makes testicles. Not just yours (ok you might get kicked there, but being upright keeps them out of the way largely) but think for instance of a rat, larges testicles hanging there just fractions of an inch above the ground, and prone to snag on all sorts of things.
So the purpose of the flaw is to allow better sperm production - logical.
But if we had an intelligent designer, the logical result would be for the enzymes to work at the same temperature as the rest of our body, and we could have had our testicles tucked somewhere safe inside like a set of ovaries.
If your answer to this, is to say that the Laws of Nature prevent the design of an enzyme which would work at body temperature, then what you've then said is that the Intelligent Designer is bound by the Laws of Nature too, the Laws that said Intelligent Designer designed.
So either we have an Intelligent Designer who is in facct part of a larger natural system, or we have one who isn't that intelligent after all, and who didn't have the forthought when designing the Laws of Nature to think "hang on, what about the balls?"
[br]What "flaws" there are none. All "flaws" are purposeful
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Testicles.
I'll explain more. The reason mammals testicles are outside the body is that the enzymic reaction used in the creation of spermatazoa works best when at a lower temperature than the rest of your body.
Now think for a second how open to damage that makes testicles. Not just yours (ok you might get kicked there, but being upright keeps them out of the way largely) but think for instance of a rat, larges testicles hanging there just fractions of an inch above the ground, and prone to snag on all sorts of things.
So the purpose of the flaw is to allow better sperm production - logical.
But if we had an intelligent designer, the logical result would be for the enzymes to work at the same temperature as the rest of our body, and we could have had our testicles tucked somewhere safe inside like a set of ovaries.
If your answer to this, is to say that the Laws of Nature prevent the design of an enzyme which would work at body temperature, then what you've then said is that the Intelligent Designer is bound by the Laws of Nature too, the Laws that said Intelligent Designer designed.
So either we have an Intelligent Designer who is in facct part of a larger natural system, or we have one who isn't that intelligent after all, and who didn't have the forthought when designing the Laws of Nature to think "hang on, what about the balls?"
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by fullmetaljacket » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:08 am
Interesting point SPG, though from the first line I thought it was just a polite way opf saying "bollocks"
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by SPG » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:34 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sharpshooter
[br]Even if you look at the bible as purely being a history book, you cannot find a fault. In the book of exodus it says somthing to the effect of (sorry... to lazy to look up): by the life of his first born the walls (of jericho) will be rebuilt. His son will be the price of its gates. Guess what happened when jericho was excavated.... 2 bodies (both wounded...) found underneath the walls of the city near the main gate.
i could go on... maybe later... but for now, im outa here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unfortunately the same archaeological dig also revealed that Jericho wasn't a walled city, and so there were no walls, nor foundations of walls to have fallen down, in fact the Aramaic word can also be translated as defences which actually makes a lot of sense - the Jerichans see this huge mass of people a veritable army trooping round the city making huge amounts of noice and think "bugger me if that lot attack we're all going to die" and so their defences crumble.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Navigator7The bible has stood the test of time far better than any creation of man.
The bible was written by disciples of Christ.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wrong, large parts of the Bible were written down well before Christ's birth, in fact Christ frequently makes reference to the $criptures himself - those being some of the writings that go to make up the present Old Testament. As for the New Testament, the dates for the authorship of the four gospels range from AD 40 to AD 120, thus after the death of the disciples (There is some evidence that the Gospel of John was written within the lifetime of some of the disciples - there is very little evidence however that it was written by the disciple John himself).
The Bible as we know it now, is however a Canon of many books and that Canon was decided upon in I seem to remember 425 AD (I could be wrong on the date, it's 14 years since I completed my Masters in Theology, and I have a bad memory). Bishops from all over the then Christian world met to agree on a single uniform book of teachings upon which the Christian faith could be based. There were however many more books floating around at the time and which had been in use by Christians prior to this (ref: Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Jude, Gospel of Peter etc and ref: also the Didache (one of the earliest pieces of Christian writing dating from about AD 5)).
So note that it was humans - whether acting under Divine Inspiration or not - who decided on the state of the Bible as you have it in your hand today. Had you been born in 350 AD your Christian texts would have been very different, and likely very more varied.
Oh and just to point out, I am a Christian, I believe in the historicity of Jesus Christ as a person, and I understand, respect and aim to follow his teachings to the best of my ability. Because of this I see that one of Christ's purposes in life was to over-turn the religiosity of the Jewish faith (see his attacks on the hypocrisy of the Pharisees) and to resurrect the direct connection between Man and God. I firmly believe too that Christ had an understanding that the Ancient $criptures contained a history of the understanding of the forebears of the Jewish faith AT THAT TIME. To give an example: for Abraham the boundaries of the known world would have been smaller than the boundaries of the known world at the time of Christ, the Roman Empire meant that trade with, and information from, lands unknown previously. As man's geographical exploration expanded so did his geographical knowledge. Thus I see it with the "science" of the Bible, the Creation story gives us a picture of the understanding at the time (circa 1500 BC), but even by Christ's time scientific exploration by the Greeks, Arabs, Chinese would have meant that the scientific knowledge was greater than that summed up in Genesis. Did this poses a problem to the Jews? No, because they understood that the $criptures reported the sum of knowledge AT THE TIME OF WRITING, a history of the development of their beliefs.
This doesn't make them wrong, because they're not claiming to be right, they're claiming to give a report of what was known at the time, they're not claiming to be the sum of all correct knowledge for all eternity.
[br]Even if you look at the bible as purely being a history book, you cannot find a fault. In the book of exodus it says somthing to the effect of (sorry... to lazy to look up): by the life of his first born the walls (of jericho) will be rebuilt. His son will be the price of its gates. Guess what happened when jericho was excavated.... 2 bodies (both wounded...) found underneath the walls of the city near the main gate.
i could go on... maybe later... but for now, im outa here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unfortunately the same archaeological dig also revealed that Jericho wasn't a walled city, and so there were no walls, nor foundations of walls to have fallen down, in fact the Aramaic word can also be translated as defences which actually makes a lot of sense - the Jerichans see this huge mass of people a veritable army trooping round the city making huge amounts of noice and think "bugger me if that lot attack we're all going to die" and so their defences crumble.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Navigator7The bible has stood the test of time far better than any creation of man.
The bible was written by disciples of Christ.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wrong, large parts of the Bible were written down well before Christ's birth, in fact Christ frequently makes reference to the $criptures himself - those being some of the writings that go to make up the present Old Testament. As for the New Testament, the dates for the authorship of the four gospels range from AD 40 to AD 120, thus after the death of the disciples (There is some evidence that the Gospel of John was written within the lifetime of some of the disciples - there is very little evidence however that it was written by the disciple John himself).
The Bible as we know it now, is however a Canon of many books and that Canon was decided upon in I seem to remember 425 AD (I could be wrong on the date, it's 14 years since I completed my Masters in Theology, and I have a bad memory). Bishops from all over the then Christian world met to agree on a single uniform book of teachings upon which the Christian faith could be based. There were however many more books floating around at the time and which had been in use by Christians prior to this (ref: Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Jude, Gospel of Peter etc and ref: also the Didache (one of the earliest pieces of Christian writing dating from about AD 5)).
So note that it was humans - whether acting under Divine Inspiration or not - who decided on the state of the Bible as you have it in your hand today. Had you been born in 350 AD your Christian texts would have been very different, and likely very more varied.
Oh and just to point out, I am a Christian, I believe in the historicity of Jesus Christ as a person, and I understand, respect and aim to follow his teachings to the best of my ability. Because of this I see that one of Christ's purposes in life was to over-turn the religiosity of the Jewish faith (see his attacks on the hypocrisy of the Pharisees) and to resurrect the direct connection between Man and God. I firmly believe too that Christ had an understanding that the Ancient $criptures contained a history of the understanding of the forebears of the Jewish faith AT THAT TIME. To give an example: for Abraham the boundaries of the known world would have been smaller than the boundaries of the known world at the time of Christ, the Roman Empire meant that trade with, and information from, lands unknown previously. As man's geographical exploration expanded so did his geographical knowledge. Thus I see it with the "science" of the Bible, the Creation story gives us a picture of the understanding at the time (circa 1500 BC), but even by Christ's time scientific exploration by the Greeks, Arabs, Chinese would have meant that the scientific knowledge was greater than that summed up in Genesis. Did this poses a problem to the Jews? No, because they understood that the $criptures reported the sum of knowledge AT THE TIME OF WRITING, a history of the development of their beliefs.
This doesn't make them wrong, because they're not claiming to be right, they're claiming to give a report of what was known at the time, they're not claiming to be the sum of all correct knowledge for all eternity.
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by Arborman495 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:56 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mr.Plow
[br]<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This happened rapidly during a certain WORLDWIDE FLOOD<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Then why'd it happen only there? I don't see many canyons in Tennessee... shoot, that worldwide flood sure was selective! And it must've been really slow, like over a many millenia, and wait... no, that doesn't account for the grand canyon or its surrounding landscape at all. Darn, that was close.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Revision is not needed when the Source is FLAWLESS. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Or if it has no predictive/explanatory scientific value.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Has no scientific value?!!??!?!
That is total crap!!! Read this and realize that the bible is THE SCIENTIFIC ATHOURITY. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. We have listed statements on this page that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many of them were listed in the Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere.
And mr squeeze my cheese. Man DID RECORD the writings in the Bible through writting, but they were not the original author. God was with them to tell them what to write
[br]<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This happened rapidly during a certain WORLDWIDE FLOOD<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Then why'd it happen only there? I don't see many canyons in Tennessee... shoot, that worldwide flood sure was selective! And it must've been really slow, like over a many millenia, and wait... no, that doesn't account for the grand canyon or its surrounding landscape at all. Darn, that was close.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Revision is not needed when the Source is FLAWLESS. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Or if it has no predictive/explanatory scientific value.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Has no scientific value?!!??!?!
That is total crap!!! Read this and realize that the bible is THE SCIENTIFIC ATHOURITY. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. We have listed statements on this page that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many of them were listed in the Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere.
And mr squeeze my cheese. Man DID RECORD the writings in the Bible through writting, but they were not the original author. God was with them to tell them what to write
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by Arborman495 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:14 am
And just to kill your little THEORY all together.
Law of Biogenesis.
Laws of Thermodynamics. look those up and then look at evoltuion.
Since you probably still believe in evolution, (of course you do, being stubborn about what you believe in is something I respect)
If you cut all of the scientific mess that evolution has created out of the picture, you come to two sides (in this case)
In the end of the day, if you believe in evolution, you are an Atheist. If you believe that Jesus came to die for you, you are a Christian.
If the Christians are wrong in the end, nothing lost. I will end up as a butterfly of just cease to exist.
But if everyone else is wrong, they will spend all of eternity in hell
Law of Biogenesis.
Laws of Thermodynamics. look those up and then look at evoltuion.
Since you probably still believe in evolution, (of course you do, being stubborn about what you believe in is something I respect)
If you cut all of the scientific mess that evolution has created out of the picture, you come to two sides (in this case)
In the end of the day, if you believe in evolution, you are an Atheist. If you believe that Jesus came to die for you, you are a Christian.
If the Christians are wrong in the end, nothing lost. I will end up as a butterfly of just cease to exist.
But if everyone else is wrong, they will spend all of eternity in hell
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by fullmetaljacket » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:16 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That is total crap!!! Read this and realize that the bible is THE SCIENTIFIC ATHOURITY. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You <i>are</i> joking, right?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In your kid’s dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.â€ÂÂ
You <i>are</i> joking, right?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In your kid’s dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.â€ÂÂ
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by Arborman495 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:23 am
God IS God because he does have the ability to do things that we can't explain.
If The Bible was totally "scientificly" proven, than you would have people that believe for the wrong reason. It takes faith just as evolution does.
If The Bible was totally "scientificly" proven, than you would have people that believe for the wrong reason. It takes faith just as evolution does.
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