Black Hole


Postby spuzi14 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:52 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214541,00.html

As much as I despise using a news network for information, I wanted to get this discussion going.[:(!]

Note:I have never taken physics and anything I say is based on my small knowledge of physics.

This has me ticked off beyond reason. What good could some out of this? So, wee-hah we discover where matter came from...is it worth the risk of over one billion people? I don't care how much math you stuck into it, I don't care how much calculating was done and I don't care how smart these guys are...this isn't worth the risk.

The human race is walking into plots I've seen in video games. Something is made for experimental purposes. Bad guy takes note of it. Bad guy steals it thinking he can simply (in this case) make things disappear. Bad guy makes many wrong choices and more than a few things are disappearing.

I love to experiment and mess with things, I ignore the thought it could kill me (by taking precautions). However, I would not want to mess with something that could literally rip more than just the stuff around my lab (workbench) apart. Even though men like Einstein have been right, they can be wrong. In this case it would be beyond horrible is they were.

So I'm against this...a lot! What do you guys think?
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Postby Mr.Plow » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:42 pm

I'm for it, 100%

There were also fears that a nuclear explosion would self-propagate and consume the entire atmosphere, or (and this is funny) when detonated underwater would drain the oceans. Fears aren't necessarily bound by reason or probability. These fears are totally groundless.

From the article
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
"Still, let's assume that even if Hawking is a genius, he's wrong, and that such black holes are more stable," Landsberg said.

Nearly all of the black holes will be traveling fast enough from the accelerator to escape Earth's gravity.

"Even if you produced 10 million black holes a year, only 10 would basically get trapped, orbiting around its center," Landsberg said.

However, such trapped black holes are so tiny, they could pass through a block of iron the distance from the Earth to the Moon and not hit anything. They would each take about 100 hours to gobble up one proton.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's pretty convincing.

And back:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The human race is walking into plots I've seen in video games. Something is made for experimental purposes. Bad guy takes note of it. Bad guy steals it thinking he can simply (in this case) make things disappear. Bad guy makes many wrong choices and more than a few things are disappearing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Kinda hard to steal something <b>17 miles long</b>, huh?[:p]
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Postby spuzi14 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:09 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Kinda hard to steal something 17 miles long, huh?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, hiding it is the problem!!:D

I just think there's other areas that need improvement in the world instead of worrying about the origin of matter. You do have a point about our nuclear bombs. At least that was accomplishing something, though. If this could end terrorism or the energy crisis (plausible?) then I'd reconsider but with the risks out weighing the advantages and other world problems at the table...I see no need for this, now mostly.

On the other hand, I guess there's enough scientists in the world to focus on more than one thing.
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Postby someguynamedchris » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:10 pm

How does Landsberg or the other scientists know so much about something that were not even 100% sure exists?
Im sure one of the reasons for this experiment is to prove over all that black holes exist and they probably do but we know so little about them and they seam dangerous.
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Postby Mr.Plow » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:26 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I just think there's other areas that need improvement in the world instead of worrying about the origin of matter. You do have a point about our nuclear bombs. At least that was accomplishing something, though. If this could end terrorism or the energy crisis (plausible?) then I'd reconsider but with the risks out weighing the advantages and other world problems at the table...I see no need for this, now mostly.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If there is no substance to the risks, how can they outweigh the advantages?

There's other areas of the world which need improvement instead of worrying about how to build potato guns, for that matter. You're sounding like a budding <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism">Benthamite</a> :D

--edit--
I find it interesting that you're anthropomorphizing the <i>idea</i> of Human Affairs, as if there is some person/thing who decides which course of action the world takes, whether it be towards research (which, I posit, IS improving the world) or what I imagine you would call "humanitarian efforts." No one worries about the origin of matter; the inquiry is a result of our natural proclivity towards investigation. You're considering the consequences, which is good, but you're blinded by hindsight bias; I doubt your appraisal of the nuclear bomb would be as positive had the Cold War become hot as a splitting atom. Nothing can "end terrorism," as you say, because it is an <b>idea</b>. Just as neonazis exist post WW2, you can't kill ideas. Regardless, the point is that you can't make an assumption of what this research could provide in terms of material goods which directly influence you. Rather, just in the same way that nuclear research at Oak Ridge (which I had a great time doing for a summer) will probably not directly profit you, the inquiry, further research, perfecting of design, etc will inevitably lead to a workable result (in the Oak Ridge case, a longer lasting laptop battery and a new type of radiological dye).

The idea of "worth it" supposes we can adequately predict consequences. Consequences, in turn, can be broken down into many dimensions. Intellectual gains, material/economic effects, etc.
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Postby Freefall » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:35 pm

While the headline-ized statement:
<b><font size=+1 face="arial">BLACK HOLE ESCAPES LABORATORY CONFINEMENT</font>
SCIENTISTS SAY EARTH WILL COLLAPSE WITHIN TEN DAYS</b>

is great source material for a sci-fi disaster movie, it's not even remotely close to possible, for the combination of several reasons:
• The tiny black holes are, for the most part, moving at greater than escape velocity. They will leave Earth-space never to return.
• They're so small that the collision rate between the black hole and existing matter is insufficient to provide a net positive energy flux into the black hole. Therefore, the black hole will shrink and eventually vanish.

By gaining an understanding of particle interactions at such immensely high energy density, scientists move a little closer to being able to create sustainable fusion. In my book, that's certainly worth the research money. With the "risks" well understood to be nearly zero, the reward/risk ratio becomes nearly infinite. (X/0 = <font size = +1>∞</font>)
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Postby Mr.Plow » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:19 pm

NO FREEFALL! DON'T <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLxMN5YMS3A">DIVIDE BY ZERO!!</a>
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Postby spuzi14 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:19 pm

Well my whole thing with the "other things need improvement" is trying to say that if these guys are so smart that they can create a black hole, why not use that same intelligence where it needs it. Don't go off and reinvent the wheel but just try to improve other things. I guess I've hit a dead end with this idea.

You do have a point, Plow. Ideas can't be destroyed, at least by other people.

Freefall I'm glad you explained it to me. My farthest knowledge into physics is here on the forums. I've learned what's behind a spudgun and it's actually applied to a lot of stuff I've done. It sounds like you and them might be right, this might not be SO bad. It's just the thought that my life would get cut short because somebody forgot to carry the two would kind of make me really pissed off, you know what I mean?

Great video Plow!! I want to show it to my geometry teacher but I can't download it to my flashdrive and we can't get on Youtube at school...it was still funny
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