Evolution: The individual, education, and overal


Postby clide » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:14 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fullmetaljacket
Do we need the promise of eternal happiness, or the threat of eternal damnation, to go against our selfish instincts and turn the other cheek? And if you're being a "better person" purely for the sake of saving yourself from the flames of hell, are you <i>really</i> a better person?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do believe motivation helps people do the right thing. Sure people can do the right thing purely out of it being the right thing to do, but having accountability for your actions surely helps. Also, you are being a better person out of love for the lord. Loving the lord saves you from the flames of hell, not your actions.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume what God is thinking? There was no rational reason why Adam and Eve shouldn't have a taken a bite out of that delicious apple, it wasn't poisoned or anything, but God said "No, this is my rule." Who were they to say that it didn't matter?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
God said "no, this is my rule", not a book assembled by man. Being assembled by man it is not without its flaws. I am assuming what those flaws are. I have my assumptions of what God is and what he wants from us as humans. If I am wrong I guess I go to hell, but I shouldn't give up all faith just because of the possibility that my faith could be wrong.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Apply some common sense to our situation, we are tiny entities that briefly populate the surface of a planet that is to the universe what a grain of sand is to an aircraft carrier, yet there is an all knowing all seeing force of overwhelming goodness out there who actually cares about each and every one of us? Common sense is what put me off religion in the first place.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Once again, we just interpret the world differently, I think we have established that.
clide
 
Posts: 2488
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:52 am
Location: USA
 

Postby Navigator7 » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 am

It's kind of like the pottery suggesting the they know better than the potter.
Navigator7
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: USA
 

Postby fullmetaljacket » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:10 am

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's kind of like the pottery suggesting the they know better than the potter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what humanity's constantly up to though, isn't it? Forever coming up with and reinterpreting the "word of god" for its own purposes, be they malevolent or benign.
fullmetaljacket
 
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:33 pm
 

Postby SPG » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:52 am

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrCrowley
[br]Well it seems that way in this thread. At the moment we have Arborman saying god created everything and thats that. Then we have people saying there is no good its all evolution.(thats me) Then we have some confused people....Are you saying god created everything but evolution evolved Apes to Men?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Literalist, Static Christian says God created everything and presents us with an essentially static, unchanging system - Earth 4000 years old, All flora and fauna created as we see them now, including Man, but some of them die off due to the Flood.

The true Evolutionist says everything we see came about through random chance and obeys the Laws of Nature. They can trace these back to just micro - seconds before the Big Bang, but at the very moment of the Universe bursting into existance these laws break down. The question "What caused the Big Bang?" cannot be answered with out current understanding of the Laws.

Then there's option three, God as First Cause.

The Metaphorical, Dynamic Christian says God is the cause of the system we have, a dynamic ever changing system, which allows for nature to change, adapt and evolve. God devises the Laws of Nature by which all processes work including the Big Bang and all Evolutionary processes. God however remains outside these created Laws. Once the Universe is created, the important part begins, the relationship of God to that Universe, and ultimately the realtionship between Man and God.

In this case the Bible isn't a literal story of exactly how things happened. What the Bible is is a record of how humans explained their being, and of how their relationship with and understanding of God developped. The Bible itself documents the evolution of mankind's understanding of "What God Is" and "What Man Is".

Look at how God's apparent nature changes from Genesis, through Exodus, through the prophets and then on to Christ. Does this mean God actually changes? Or does it mean that Mankind comes closer to God and understands more about God, and Mankinds understanding of God develops?

The answer to FMJ's question, is Mankind re-interpreting the Word of God? Both yes and no, just as Mankind's understanding of the world around him has changed and developped and been re-interpreted, so has Mankind's understanding of God. 3000 + years ago when the first Creation stories were circulating round the tribe of Abraham, there was no science, their understaning of the Laws of Nature was largely based on the idea of the supernatural, if there was no visible explanation then the answer was "God did it". As scientific thought develops more and more Mankind says "It obeys the Natural Laws". What the Bible shows us is a living, dynamic, evolving understanding of the way the Universe works, and of the living, dynamic, evolving understanding of the relationship between Man and God; until we come to Christ, where we understand that our relationships with each other are as important as our relationship with God.

So even the Bible charts an evolutionary process.
SPG
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:51 am
Location: France
 

Sponsored

Sponsor
 
 

Postby MrCrowley » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:19 pm

Anyone here about Titanic director James Cameron finding the remains of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and the Virign Mary?

Sounds BS to me.
MrCrowley
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:30 am
Location: New Zealand
 

Postby fullmetaljacket » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:35 pm

This might be offensive to some, if so Mods feel free to delete, but i found it rather amusing. It's the latest comics from explosm.net, very topical :D

<a href="http://www.explosm.net/comics/816/">creation part 1</a>

<a href="http://www.explosm.net/comics/818/">creation part 2</a>
fullmetaljacket
 
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:33 pm
 

Postby spuzi14 » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:32 pm

I see no humor...I'm not offended...bored with it actually.

7 days flew by so he took a break.

He didn't like dinosaurs so he destroyed them.
spuzi14
 
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: USA
 

Postby Navigator7 » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:13 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SPG
The Literalist, Static Christian says God created everything and presents us with an essentially static, unchanging system - Earth 4000 years old, All flora and fauna created as we see them now, including Man, but some of them die off due to the Flood. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Science has been changing how old the earth is ever since I've been alive. The only way science can make the earth fit it's evolutionary agenda is to announce the Earth is simply older than previously thought.

For example....The Grand Canyon. Built over 100's of millions of years or a month? If you answer science's age...then explain the pyramids?

If the Bible was inaccurate and changed as often as science does today....then you'd have a great point.
Simply point out the flaws of the Bible or God's word or Jesus' word.
Navigator7
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: USA
 

Postby SPG » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:49 am

Yeah, but Nav that's the point the Bible isn't one book, the bible is a collection of books written over a period of many hundreds of years. So if you start at the beginning and work through it, you can see that the ideas expressed about God change from Abraham, to Isiah, to Christ. Does this mean that God has changed? Or does it mean that over this period man's understanding of God has changed?

I'd say it's the latter. Now this doesn't mean in anyway that the earlier books of the Bible are wrong or inaccurate, because what they're saying isn't "This is what God is", but "This is what we think God is". So they give an accurate picture of what Mankind thought about God at the time.

This is why I say it's like science. Take a book of the history of astronomy for instance. You'll see that there was a time when Mankind thought the Earth was at the centre of everything and everything revolved around it. Then in the next chapter you'll read about Galileo, and about how his ideas changed the thinking of the day, to that of the Sun being at the centre and the Earth and all the other planets revolving round it (simplified version I know).

Does this mean the facts pre-Galileo are inaccurate? Yes. Does it mean that the history book is inaccurate? No, because it gives an accurate history of the thinking at the time, and the development of that thinking.

So it is with the Bible, it gives us a history of the development of a faith, the developement of that faith's thinking. Jesus himself gives new ways of thinking about God. The Bible charts these developments. The facts in the Bible may be inaccurate, the history of their development is not.
SPG
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:51 am
Location: France
 

Postby Navigator7 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:12 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="tahoma,verdana,arial" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SPG
[br]Yeah, but Nav that's the point the Bible isn't one book, the bible is a collection of books written over a period of many hundreds of years. So if you start at the beginning and work through it, you can see that the ideas expressed about God change from Abraham, to Isiah, to Christ. Does this mean that God has changed? Or does it mean that over this period man's understanding of God has changed?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Before Jesus, God spoke through the prophets.
The birth of Jesus fulfilled God's law.
The New Testament is the "Book" that concerns us.

Those that confuse Old and New testaments to debate God's issues and heap contempt upon Jesus are the same type of people who install software without reading the instructions.

The bible is the best owners manual on the planet.
Individual milage may vary.
Navigator7
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: USA
 
 
PreviousNext

Return to Political Rants, Discussions & Debates