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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:39 pm

sputnick wrote:Don't understand exactly why it is that that is not acceptable, but if you insist.

As an off topic question, Where have you been Crowley, this is the first post of yours I have seen in quite some time :)

For your first query, members shouldn't discipline other members themselves for a number of reason:

1: You are both on the same level of hierarchy. Post count and rank mean little and rarely do I ever see a senior and well respected member disciplining a member for kicking up a topic.

2: The member may not take it very well, being disciplined by someone who has no authority over them. And most likely being disciplined in a rude manner.

3: We have moderators for a reason. Best for a Mod to do their job then some random member on the forum. If we keep it to Mods and only Mods, it is more official and the member can talk with the moderator about it in private.

And this doesn't only apply to members who kick up topics, if any member breaks any rule, PM a moderator. Even if someone double posts and you just simply remind them, as long as it is in a polite and reminding way and you still PM a mod, it doesn't bother me too much. Because as soon as a Mod deals with it, it is official. The Mod then can say they've warned that member in the past etc, if the member happens to go round double posting some more without care for the rules.


I've been here the whole time by the way. I just probably don't post as much as I used to but I definitely visit the site at least once a day.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:42 pm

MrCrowley wrote:Countless times we Mods, have to tell other members to stay out of things and report it to a Moderator. No member, regardless of age, post count or frequency should ever tell another member off for kicking up a topic. If you are found by a Mod to have done so, we will PM you and tell you off ourselves.

Remember folks, report it a Moderator, do not deal with it yourself.


I was reading over the forum rules and the global announcement post you made, and there seems to be nothing to this effect. The only thing I saw was about bumping old topics, as is being discussed in the current topic.

I know better, as do most members here, but maybe the rules can be edited to reflect this, and, therefore, can be referred back if needed.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:32 pm

and there seems to be nothing to this effect.

Aside from the days when pimpmann22 used to make topics about it, I PM every member I find telling another member off.

Forum members see very little of what us Mods actually do unless you are the member getting told off in the first place.

But yes, I guess I can add it to the rules also.

Edit: It could've fallen under this actually:
2. Treat others positively and with respect. Flaming other members or other forums will lead to a warning, possibly even a ban

I'll add to that for clarification though.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Meh, it depends.

If they have a very valid question that's fine. I don't usually post in old posts (except for that one, it wasn't really my fault..someone had bumped it into the recent posts column..so I didn't check the date).

Though people, rather than bumping old topics with compliments or questions you could send them to the original creator of the cannon, presuming they're still around.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:28 pm

inonickname wrote:Meh, it depends.

If they have a very valid question that's fine. I don't usually post in old posts (except for that one, it wasn't really my fault..someone had bumped it into the recent posts column..so I didn't check the date).

Though people, rather than bumping old topics with compliments or questions you could send them to the original creator of the cannon, presuming they're still around.

Thoroughly read my post on the first page.

As for your second comment, they can see the creator by looking at the topic author. Even if it is one by PCGUY, he always references the creator.

:?
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Unread postAuthor: sputnick » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:13 pm

I understand all you're saying, like actually, I can understand how frustrating it must be to have to deal with rule breakers AND wannabe mods, but god am I sick of having to check the last page of every thread to see if it's a kick up.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:48 pm

but god am I sick of having to check the last page of every thread to see if it's a kick up.

Two issues I can already see:

1: If you check the dates of posts on the first pages, that generally gives you some idea.

2: If you're making a post, you should read EVERY SINGLE post and page of that topic unless you are just commenting on a nice build. So when you say that you're sick of checking the last page, that tells me you're not even bothering to check other posts to make sure your comment and/or question hasn't been previously posted.

3: Tough. It's a lot easier for you to simply load a single page and read a date then it is for me to delete multiple posts, then PM the member explaining the rules in a very simple and polite way to make sure they understand.

I said a crap load of PM's, I wish all I had to do was check a date on a page like you do.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:49 pm

MrCrowley wrote:
inonickname wrote:Meh, it depends.

If they have a very valid question that's fine. I don't usually post in old posts (except for that one, it wasn't really my fault..someone had bumped it into the recent posts column..so I didn't check the date).

Though people, rather than bumping old topics with compliments or questions you could send them to the original creator of the cannon, presuming they're still around.

Thoroughly read my post on the first page.

As for your second comment, they can see the creator by looking at the topic author. Even if it is one by PCGUY, he always references the creator.

:?


Umm..unless I'm missing something I was sort of agreeing with you, just weighing in with what I though on the topic..as other people have done.

Not sure what you mean by they can see the creator by looking at the author..I think that would be rather obvious. I meant that they could send the "hey, I'm impressed with your cannon...how did you do this?" through a PM rather than reigniting an old topic.

*I wasn't insulting anyone if that was the problem.

If they have a very valid question that's fine.


If saying that was the problem, I was saying what I THOUGHT on the topic, not what the RULES stated about it.

Sorry if I did something I didn't realize?

:cry:
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:51 pm

inonickname wrote:Umm..unless I'm missing something I was sort of agreeing with you, just weighing in with what I though on the topic..as other people have done.

Not sure what you mean by they can see the creator by looking at the author..I think that would be rather obvious. I meant that they could send the "hey, I'm impressed with your cannon...how did you do this?" through a PM rather than reigniting an old topic.

Sorry I thought you were Sputnick when replying to you, but you did parrot what I had earlier said anyway :wink: :wink:

:)

Not sure what you mean by they can see the creator by looking at the author..I think that would be rather obvious. I meant that they could send the "hey, I'm impressed with your cannon...how did you do this?" through a PM rather than reigniting an old topic.

Just the way you worded it, when you said 'you' I thought you were telling me that Mods should refer people who bump topics, to the creator.

In an ideal world, everyone would just PM the creator but if there question is good enough, it should stay in the topic for future members to refer to and it's hard enough enforcing the rules we already have let alone that one.

Though I have had a number of people actually email me about my cannons :)
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:04 am

MrCrowley wrote:Post count and rank mean little and rarely do I ever see a senior and well respected member disciplining a member for kicking up a topic.

I have a hard time overcoming the mod in me, so I will apologise here for any of the odd slips I have into making "rule reminders".
Of course, my apologising does assume that I'm a senior and well respected member - might just be "that British nut".

But then, as you already know, I have a habit of writing my interpretations of the rules and forum etiquette on the Wiki in an attempt to make it easier to give a fuller explain to newbs/n00bs about why those rules are in place.

I just probably don't post as much as I used to but I definitely visit the site at least once a day.

Much the same here. You should see the number of times I write out full posts then simply decide to discard them because I don't think it's up to my standards. Depending on how I'm feeling that day, it can be anywhere from a quarter to half of the posts I write (and thus, sometimes as much again as I actually post.)

Of course, some days, I'm prone to posting any and every attempt I make at being witty.

Also @ Sputnick: About your signature, General Sedgwick was indeed hit by a sharpshooter's bullet - but if you actually look into it, sometime AFTER finishing his sentence, and he wasn't killed absolutely instantly.
Also, IIRC, it wasn't a round ball either. All the sources I can think of say it was a Whitworth rifle, which fires a distinctive hexagonal bullet - and which was known for it's accuracy relative to other rifles of the period because of the rifling's effectiveness and twist rate.

Sorry about that - me going off on a tangent again.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:15 am

Alright, so it's been stated that it's not another member's place to discipline another on whatever.

Eg.

*Guy kicks up old post*

Response: Oi don't kick up post you dumb noob

Would be against the rules,


But would it be ok to politely, but firmly guide them away from something:

Eg.

Hey this is my new PVC cannon it uses 10 grams of black powder.

Response: That's a nice looking cannon, but it would be an unwise decision to use gunpowder in it as that would be very dangerous. *insert link for safe fuel list*

OR

*Somebody kicks up an old post, but asks a fairly valid question*

Response: *answer to question*. You may find that in the future it can be better to start a new thread, or private message the creator. (being polite)


So what I'm basically asking:

It's not our place to discipline other members, but could we steer them away from circumstances such as the above?
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:47 am

inonickname wrote:Hey this is my new PVC cannon it uses 10 grams of black powder.
Response: That's a nice looking cannon, but it would be an unwise decision to use gunpowder in it as that would be very dangerous. *insert link for safe fuel list*

In that case, I think your response is very much below spec. I'd personally launch into not just "steering them away", but hitting them like a bloody freight train.
It's not just unwise, it's bloody lunacy. Firearm propellants can hit tens of thousands of psi. PVC cannot withstand that. I think Ryan Meerdink proved that the hard way for us.

When it's a matter of safety then lack of moderator status be damned, I can and will hit them with everything I've got. It's no longer a matter of forum rules, it's literally life or death. We do not need to see another "spudgun" fatality in the news, and especially not one that can be linked to our site.

Although only the moderators should enforce the actual rules, everyone should enforce matters of safety, even if the specifics of that safety is also laid out under the rules.
In that case, the promptness of someone, anyone, getting to it in the hope they read it before they do something so incredibly daft, and even merely delaying them, is far more important than it being dealt with by the moderators.

Anyway - I might not be a moderator here, but whatever happens, I am here to give advice to people. If that happens to be safety advice that happens to mesh with the rules, then that's what it'll be.
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Unread postAuthor: inonickname » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:50 am

Ragnarok wrote:
inonickname wrote:Hey this is my new PVC cannon it uses 10 grams of black powder.
Response: That's a nice looking cannon, but it would be an unwise decision to use gunpowder in it as that would be very dangerous. *insert link for safe fuel list*

In that case, I think your response is very much below spec. I'd personally launch into not just "steering them away", but hitting them like a bloody freight train.
It's not just unwise, it's bloody lunacy. Firearm propellants can hit tens of thousands of psi. PVC cannot withstand that. I think Ryan Meerdink proved that the hard way for us.

When it's a matter of safety then lack of moderator status be damned, I can and will hit them with everything I've got. It's no longer a matter of forum rules, it's literally life or death. We do not need to see another "spudgun" fatality in the news, and especially not one that can be linked to our site.

Although only the moderators should enforce the actual rules, everyone should enforce matters of safety, even if the specifics of that safety is also laid out under the rules.
In that case, the promptness of someone, anyone, getting to it in the hope they read it before they do something so incredibly daft, and even merely delaying them, is far more important than it being dealt with by the moderators.

Anyway - I might not be a moderator here, but whatever happens, I am here to give advice to people. If that happens to be safety advice that happens to mesh with the rules, then that's what it'll be.


Well that was purely an example (probably not the correct one to use)- though where would the line be for things such as forum bumping, spelling and grammar?

It's kind of irritating where the line between discipline and simply letting someone know what they did.

So basically (mainly asking a mod here) would the average member be allowed to say (politely of course):

*answer here*. Hey (welcome to spudfiles if they're new), it's generally not a good idea to post in old topics; you could try starting a new one or messaging the author.

If it's not offensive, not being rude and simply, politely requesting them not to perform that action again there's no problem with it surely. Just as long as you don't bite their head off?

And Rag is correct, the exception should be safety..Whether it's a general note for use of DWV in a combustion, a telling off for DWV in a pneumatic or a less insulting flame for something as stupid as black powder.

For the standard person, I believe that another member speaking to them firmly but politely would take some effect. I think more of a problem would come when the responder begins to get rude or insulting, which can invoke arguments and completely destroy anything constructive in the post(s).

Am I correct?
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Unread postAuthor: SPG » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:57 am

One thought from me (although maybe with nine sub-thoughts).

There's a fine line here between "Hey n00b don't dredge up old threads, you feckwit" and "Hey n00b use the search button at the top right corner, you feckwit"

For instance in the post referenced above, the new poster's describing a similar cannon but made in different materials and asking for advice on an addition to it. That's often easier than finding your camera, taking photos, putting them on a hosting, inserting the image, making a new post describing your cannon, and then asking for advice, especially if as a n00b you're also slightly worried that your cannon doesn't compare to some round here and you might get flamed a bit for making something naff.

Maybe JSR's route's a good one, he'll make a new post, but link to an old post so we can get some back story (even if it does mean 200 frames opening).
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Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:39 am

Geez, I didn't mean to start WWIII...lol

This was about how the message was getting relayed by nonmods, Hence my phrasing "jumping down throats"... I don't think anybody minds being told about the rules if it's done in a polite manner...

And back on my original track, a new member prolly doesn't realize that a lot of the "random cannons" are old topics that are no longer discussed at length, most new people would think the random cannon showcase is for highlighting and discussing the cannons that are current, not 3 years old...

Maybe there's a way for a message to pop up before the clicked on cannon loads to clarify that "what you are about to view is from the gallery and not currently being discussed"....


Or if it's a topic from the gallery that's being kicked, be more polite about it... Because that seems to be the only threads that it occurs in...
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