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Offical Community Projects Discussion Thread

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Unread postAuthor: starman » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:38 am

Hubb wrote:
starman wrote:OK I'm going to offer up a contrarian POV here.

Haven't we already been acting as a "community" of some sort here? The technologies for this hobby are pretty much laid out in concrete at this point. Short of a fully engineered from scratch, formed, milled, firearm like cannon (which I would be all for BTW), I'm not sure a "community" effort is going to take stock plumbing and air power parts much further than has already been attained and well documented here in these hallowed pages.


You da man and all, but I will have to somewhat disagree with this. The primary purpose of a community project is to attempt and go beyond that which is laid out in concrete. To think outside the box. Everyone (especially here) has the potential to think this way, but sometimes persons need a little bit of an edge to get there. By others inputting ideas, it may trigger some of this type of thinking.


I'm all for going beyond the status quo in the concrete thing...my point is that the forum for this, I think anyway, exists here by default.

Nothing much worth a diddly squat in the world has ever been created or invented anew by committee. It has and always will be individual enlightenment and vision which unfortunately rarely coincides with others vision.

I don't want to throw cold water on the idea entirely. Getting a community designed cannon could be a fun process. However, the most we can hope for, I believe, is a "best of" existing technologies effort with *possibly* one truly new concept offered up by an enlightened individual.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:20 pm

starman wrote:I don't want to throw cold water on the idea entirely. Getting a community designed cannon could be a fun process. However, the most we can hope for, I believe, is a "best of" existing technologies effort with *possibly* one truly new concept offered up by an enlightened individual.


In an educational setting where ideas are expressed and exchanged, many good ideas come together. The launcher I built for another competition was a community effort. I had a basic valve idea. Using knowledge learned from others conceived the in barrel acceleration measurements to optimize the barrel dimensions.

In sharing that design with the build team (they were required to build their own. I could not build them one) they made some more design changes that improved the design. They added the guitar strap and added the breech loading mechanism. They moved the fill to the rear so a two man team could quickly reload and fill the chamber. It was their design that impressed the reporter covering the cannon. The quick loading was more interesting than how the valve was good. At the game they had a 10 second cycle rate launching shirts. Most pro launchers muzzle load and use a shorter barrel, but don't reach the back of the upper deck. Our team created launching mayhem launching shirts rapid fire in the 4th quarter and won the competition.

The community has me serious in thinking about building a air cannon fired piston into a springer type BB launcher for supersonic BB's. Initial design modeling indicates speeds well into supersonic is possible. The discussion is a community effort. Some will build based on this community effort. An enlightened individual is the one that takes community knowledge and fits the pieces together to work out the bugs in a design. The design most often has components from several works. Look at the air cannon BB springer above. How many ideas are combined into it? It is not even built yet. Several people are working on designs for it. I'm not the only one. I know because we are community building. Without SF community, I and the others would not be the enlightened individual. The design enlightenment is occurring now here on SF.

Quick show of hands is in order.. How may people use GGDT and HGDT?
Any questions?
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Unread postAuthor: john bunsenburner » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:38 pm

The idea is not to sit down and say: "we need an idea, someone come up with it". Not it is to sit down with a concrete idea "Semi auto hybrid" for example and to say, alright we can have this valve, but what about the burst disk, and we can have this ignition system but what about venting? And so on.

We go from a concept some one brings up and bit by bit build a plan for a gun with each part having a bit of contribution. If it is a hard project we can split up the topic into different parts and then bring it together.

I really think we should gove this a shot!
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:44 pm

Well. It does seem that this idea has struck interest in several persons here. Now, we wait for approval to get this kicked off and we can start getting rules organized and whatnot (<did I just say that? I'm getting old!).
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:05 pm

Splitting it up in regions and making it a contest between teams of members would be awesome....

But anyways, lets get this thing going... I suggest that we start discussing about what we want to achieve. From there we can start a thread (or multiple, one per desired result because not everyone will be happy with the same goal) and then further specify the desired result.
Once that is done we can start bringing up idea's and slowly work it all into a blueprint.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:54 pm

it's not that we lack know-how or we don't have ideas... but we lack motivation to use ideas we have, refine them and then test them...

something like a contest would be motivating as people would want to win

but we don't really need the whole community working on one single project.... we need to set strict guidelines and let people find their own original ideas that will allow them to meet the criteria...

if people worked on their own they wouldn't be influenced by stuff such as 'blowback won't work' or 'all you need is a blow froward bolt'

just think about that full-auto gun from the innovative design contest... most people didn't even bother (including me) to test the idea blowback operated gun thoroughly as it is widely accepted that pressures used in spudguns are too low for this...
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:59 pm

just think about that full-auto gun from the innovative design contest... most people didn't even bother (including me) to test the idea blowback operated gun thoroughly as it is widely accepted that pressures used in spudguns are too low for this...
The builder of that launcher only claimed that it would work, but never provided proof of it actually doing so. I honestly believe that, with the right circumstances, a system such as that could be made to work. The problem is, no one has found out (or proven to have found out) what these right circumstances are yet.

As far as the community working on one single project, that is not the point of this. The main point is to trigger that imaginative thinking that created launchers in the first place.

If a certain set of goals are met, there is no doubt that not every single person here will want to meet them. This will cause them to venture on the own designs. And the ideas that are inputted into the project will trigger improvements on these "lone launchers" which will probably lead to better outcomes than the actual project intended.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:35 pm

This will cause them to venture on the own designs. And the ideas that are inputted into the project will trigger improvements on these "lone launchers" which will probably lead to better outcomes than the actual project intended


It will be cool if it work this way... in fact I am just trying to make sure that it will work this way... IMO competition and adversity will increase creativity...

with one launcher only we would have to reach some sort of consensus over its design.... sorry if it seems that I am just writing the same stuff all over again but if the whole idea isn't well thought out it won't work good


ohhh could we use the set of guidelines I gave as an example for the first project?? lol that's my dream gun :wink:
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:53 pm

john bunsenburner wrote:Not it is to sit down with a concrete idea "Semi auto hybrid" for example and to say, alright we can have this valve, but what about the burst disk, and we can have this ignition system but what about venting? And so on.

Semi-auto hybrid?

Heck, I've still got the notes for a full-auto design (although it could certainly do semi. With microprocessor control, you could have anything really). It'd need machine work (part of the reason I've not yet done it), but it's certainly a feasible concept.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:30 pm

I see this as an opportunity to have the first true community cannon emerge that could be stickied or perma-posted as an image on the front page as a testament to this being a serious and legitimate hobby. I want people to come across this site and see the first community cannon staring them in the face and that cannon will speak volumes about not only our creativity and abilities as individuals, but our supremely unique ability to think as one mind and together be an engineering super organism that puts it's efforts where it's mouth is and produces result.
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:46 pm

I wouldn't call microprocessor-operated guns truly automatic.
Sure, they operate automatically, but you could automatize any launcher that way. If one would build a robot to quickly reload the gun, then that is automatic. Yet the gun itself is nothing more then a normal launcher which is quickly reloaded by another mechanism.

So they seem automatic, but they actually are non-automatic guns with a secondary system attached. And pneumatic cycling mechanisms are way more funky.
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Unread postAuthor: jeepkahn » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:50 pm

Not to be a stick in the mud,..BUT, Who get's to hold the trophy..er..cannon... It WILL be an issue...

I personally think this is a good idea, though not really practical...

You see, the way I see it, is that most on here are either so stuck to their own ideas and glory that they want credit for this and glory for that, or they've been beaten down because you should "use the search button" or "do their own research" that they are afraid to ask advice on how to implement an idea they have(i'm not talking about the newbs who want premade cannon designs, they DO Need to research and search))....

But this would be a good idea to do because it might change some "about me" mentalities to "for the greater good" mentalities...

Even though I give Marshmallow/QDV a load of crap on occasion, he does seem to be freely giving of advice to help people implement their ideas...
There are a lot on here that do that, but there are a lot of people on here who dismiss ideas instead of nurturing them.... We should all ask ourselves "why won't that work" and give solutions to the problems instead of just giving proof to the problem...Or if someone is having issues of something not working, give ideas to rectify the malfunction instead of focusing on why it malfunctioned...


Rant over... It's been a crappy day...
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:56 pm

Anyone could build the gun. And if someone lives near me or is willing to pay the shipping costs, I'd be happy to machine parts for him.
I suppose we will build multiple copies of it.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:57 pm

jeepkahn wrote:Not to be a stick in the mud,..BUT, Who get's to hold the trophy..er..cannon... It WILL be an issue...

I personally think this is a good idea, though not really practical...

You see, the way I see it, is that most on here are either so stuck to their own ideas and glory that they want credit for this and glory for that, or they've been beaten down because you should "use the search button" or "do their own research" that they are afraid to ask advice on how to implement an idea they have(i'm not talking about the newbs who want premade cannon designs, they DO Need to research and search))....

But this would be a good idea to do because it might change some "about me" mentalities to "for the greater good" mentalities...

Even though I give Marshmallow/QDV a load of crap on occasion, he does seem to be freely giving of advice to help people implement their ideas...
There are a lot on here that do that, but there are a lot of people on here who dismiss ideas instead of nurturing them.... We should all ask ourselves "why won't that work" and give solutions to the problems instead of just giving proof to the problem...Or if someone is having issues of something not working, give ideas to rectify the malfunction instead of focusing on why it malfunctioned...


Rant over... It's been a crappy day...


These are fundamental roadblocks to human progress on a global scale. Since we are humans and live on this globe, spudfiles is just as good of a place as any to start changing the ways we think and to offer self sacrifice for the common good and advancement of the hobby and advance ourselves as well. I suggest the first community cannon rest in the possesion of PCguy for promotional purposes and can also be passed around the community so each member can have a chance to enjoy it. The cannon may very well exist forever on a cyclic holder status.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Okay, the topic title has been edited by moderation, so I assume this is a good idea. And, since this is now the Official Community Projects Discussion Thread, let's begin the discussion.

First order of business is the rules. Second order of business is the builders. Last is the actual projects. Once everything has been ordered up, I'll edit the original posting to accommodate the topic title more appropriately.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purpose of the Community Project:
- To create a project that is different and/or more effective than similar products of the same class. This can be improving an existing product or simply re-inventing the wheel on a similar project to make it perform or just look better.
- To allow the less active members to become more active. A lot of members have really great ideas, but are either afraid they will be ridiculed, or simply have no idea how to begin.
- To allow the more experienced members to share thoughts they would otherwise hold private. Sometimes, members create a project, or have thoughts on a project, that they would like to keep to themselves. This will be a way for these members to maintain their secrecy while still being able to provide input.

The Community Project will be laid out as follows:
- The topic will have a specific guideline of tasks that should be accomplished
- The topic will be posted in the appropriate section of the forum
- Anyone can input ideas or opinions into the project, as long as it meets guidelines
- When members feel that the project can be completed as per the guidelines, the project can be built
- Anyone can build the project once the guidelines are met
- If a project is deemed to be unable to be completed, guidelines may be modified to allow its completion, or a new set of guidelines established

Guidelines for Community Project may include, but are not limited to, the following:
- A set budget for the project
- A set amount of time to complete the project
- Specific requirements directly related to the project topic
- Specific materials that can be used
- Specific tasks that should be accomplished by the project

Each and every project must meet safety guidelines as seen fit by members here on the forum. If a safety concern arises, it should be immediately pointed out and modified or discarded. Once the designated guidelines of a project is met (this includes building and testing of the devise) another may be started.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just off the top of my head. Please, please, please, add to this if you guys see fit. Also, it should be determined how the builders and projects should be organized. I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear from you guys first before I share views on this one.
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